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Brett Flemming

Tue, 8/18 10:43AM • 1:05:54

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bike, client, Fred, ride, brett, buy, mechanic, bicycle, shifting, middle-aged guy, hanger, store, service, shop, BMX bike, mountain bike, seminars, fun, experience, brand

SPEAKERS

Fred Clements, Rod Judd, Brett Fleming, Chad Pickard

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Fred Clements  00:17

Welcome to the NBDA Bicycle Retail Radio Podcast. I’m Fred Clements I’ll be hosting today and I’m with Brett Fleming the famous Brett Fleming. He is a master mechanic and trainer who has at least 35 years in the bicycle industry and 15 as a service manager of a multi-store group up in Portland, Oregon. But his roots are farm roots I believe Iowa Brett and he’s not really efficient.

Brett Fleming  00:48

I was a Navy brat, dad wanted to give the Midwest experience too. So I was hanging around with kids from the Philippines and Guam and then next thing I know I’m in correction Ville, Iowa. More That story later. It’s not afraid. Yeah. So but I ended up there. So I went to high school honored. Yes. wonderful experience in the Midwest.

Fred Clements  01:09

Okay? You’re the owner of efficient Vela tools, which is pretty well known in the bike industry inventor of a number of products available through efficient below tools. The easy lift, the safe zone mirror, the right arm of work stand. Clamp,

Brett Fleming  01:25

right on the lap. Yeah. And

Fred Clements  01:27

I’ve known Brett for a number of years from seminars he’s presented and really it’s a pretty powerful message, a unique message, I think in terms of service writing, to how to turn your service department as a bicycle retailer into something special, or where customers feel welcome and nurtured. And which brings up the concept that I’ve gathered. Brett from your past. Aggressive agreeability is something I’ve championed. And I wondered if you might sort of giving us a primer on aggressive agreeability

Brett Fleming  02:00

Thanks, Fred. Here’s the perspective. I’m speaking if you’re a bicycle service professional, and even a motorcycle service professional because two-wheeled vehicles have such dynamic that requires high interaction, so we’ll take it from that perspective. Right. So as a professional mechanic, I was always trying to get hired by everybody that came in the door. And to them, I tried to submit a resume and treat them as if they’re the most important person in the world and make a show about it. And let them know instantly that they had the entirety of the resources of the company right to butt off, correct. Who would do anything for them? And when I saw that heart go to every single soul, the person digging cans in the dumpster that needed a flat patch, because they couldn’t afford the tube. He was right there for him with the same level of dignity and Soozee Azzam and fairness and I just copied him and I get emotional about it because it was fun and important, and people can die. And people have extreme joy and kids run around on pushbike. Isn’t that cool? two-year-old carving turns. That’s when I finally left retail. And that was pretty cool, wasn’t it, Fred, the joy can spread so many different ways now to try to everything, you know, the mountain bike crowd, you never want to ride on the road, fine, I support them, whatever you want to do, if your interest snooty, you know, $10,000 bike, fine, I support that. If you have no money, I’ll support that too, with a smile, because it’s always working. It’s easier if you greet the mechanism with kindness, enthusiasm, and support and let the client know that you really want to help them. And thanks, David, jack for that word. When a mentor gives me something great. I copy it. That’s all. The thing that was really terrible for me in school is I did ever copied I never teach. It’s really, really hard. And I barely ground through high school. You know, and I did it though. But in real life, you didn’t cheat. You get to say to the customer, how do I get an A on your test? Give me the answers now and I’ll just give them to you if I can because that’s what we’re trying to do here. With love. And enthusiasts and in fairness and why not because you’re trading a massive part of your life for money jobs are crappy. Wouldn’t I’d rather be on my farm anytime now because I got myself a little Lakeridge. Right. That’s more fun than a job and, but why not make the job as fun as you possibly can and that’s what I copied from bud Albrecht age 95. I checked in with him recently and here’s his answer, about aggressive agreeability. I said, bud, I worked with you for 15 years I’ve worked with grace for 15 years, but I’ll break the first 15 Jay gave last year 15 and amazingly Jean Osborn for a couple of years and by cracking between and he’s the guy that taught me retail professionalism and using technology. He was a retailer first bicycle guy second but holy moly. He built a beautiful store but anyhow I called but I said I gotta get it from your mouth. How come when I was there, in all the world where we say You know, sometimes you have to fire a customer and you know the customer You know, they’re just riding along and there they don’t know nothing. I never saw you disrespecting anybody button and I never saw you say, get the heck out of my store and never want to see you again. He was all Yeah, you just never argue with people if you argue with somebody, they get mad and you get madder. We’re trying to get hired. Don’t argue with people. Even scientific argument feels like an argument thread. Well, something bent the hanger. The law of physics indicates otherwise, force acting upon another person’s life. You know, I don’t all that stuff. But some Newton would have something to say about it. People don’t care about what Isaac Newton knows and what the whole, you know, the reasonable scientific world knows. As far as they were concerned, they’re just riding along. So I’m going to agree with them and say, yeah, that’s how it is, man. You’re just riding along and you’re just going into low gear or something where you’re doing that because it’s horrible. This is a catastrophic deal, man. Sorry, it happened. But you know what, sorry, it happened a bunch of BS. Fred, you know how my stand is on the hanger, don’t you? the hanger. Great everything. If a customer bends the hanger catastrophic Lee and destroys the derailleur, it’s your fault is the dealer. And if they did in the right dealership, they would say, you know what, Fred, you were right. The bike only fell over in front of the coffee shop. I didn’t check for the scratches as you taught me. Doggone it. And it was shifting funny. Like he told me and Doug did it, Fred. When I went into low gear, it went into this book, just like you told me and destroyed it. This sucks, Fred. I’m sorry, it happened. And Doggone it, you told me and he also told me it wasn’t gonna be a warranty, Fred. So here’s the deal, Fred. I’m kind of screwed. You have this brand new bike. So I have to pay full retail for everything. Is there anything you can do? Can you talk to these people and help me get a better buy on the frame? Or can you help me find a repair source or something like that? right because I know it’s no warranty. I’m not asking you to eat it, but could you help me right now? Just to answer that question as a human being, could you would you do that for me? Would you advocate for me? You know, as usual?

Fred Clements  07:10

Yes, we will help you. We will help you. We’re here to help.

Brett Fleming  07:14

Yes, exactly, exactly. It’s like hey, but that doesn’t happen. Instead, we make fun of them because they were just riding along when a hanger bends and allows the director to go catastrophic Lee and we’re the spokes and then the rotational force destroys you know, hanger sometimes the frames wheel that is an avoidable situation that has cause and effect it doesn’t just happen riding along you know, okay, it feels like that. So the client you have to honor that so it’s always like honored the feeling spread. The aggressive agreeability is if the customer is mad at the bike or if they’re mad at the company, get mad with them. That first set the alignment that they know that you care that Jeepers, yeah, I want to this sucks. I want to get back on my bike. I agree. We have loaners we can get you going. And let me deal with the baloney of the dealership. You know, it’s usually not covered under warranty. But let me go to bat for you, right. The words that you choose I could never illustrate this well enough in my seminars I patched together while having a busy crazy life.

Fred Clements  08:17

professional service writers professional mechanics, serve the client, not the brand. The mission is the customer. Everything else follows from a well-served customer don’t chase the money first serve the customer and the money will follow. Does that make them good and

Brett Fleming  08:35

correct but don’t serve the customer in the standard fashion. That is the rule. each client has to be viewed as if you want to survive in today’s retail establishment. each client has to be completely hands curated. Friday went in to buy a few but my local dealership in took to my new farm in Chicago, Washington. I call it the no sigh ranch. I got a little half-mile mountain bike loop I do each morning and then walk the dog in my stream and it’s wonderful. And the retail there is actually pretty darn good because they know it’s a small area and they can’t screw up because small towns so I’ve had some pretty exceptional experiences I went in to get to my mountain bike because I have thorns on my property and fixing flats all the time. And as a professional you should know even as millions and millions of flats that I’ve ticked they all suck in their massive massive barrier to get on a bike and riding for anybody for me or for anybody my crippled hands I think about the pain the change in tubes and I haven’t done it millions and millions of times but in the I go to the local bike shop and I want to buy it too It’s not one of them slime filled tubes and what the fattest one I can’t cuz I don’t like them suckers stretching out and I kind of gave him some specific information. And I said I would advise them SPD mountain to size 41 standard pleat, not SPD but that brand that type of you know, like a mountain fleet to different brands. I don’t mention that. He did it and I said I’d like the cleats roughed in and I think I really appreciate the threads grease, but I really want those counters to think bolts. I want the countersunk areas to grease because that’s the part that’s all creaky when you try to break it loose five years now in Oregon dust. So it was fun because they said that’s how we do it. And they were really agreeable, right. And then the best thing was Fred, you won’t believe the bike. They had a chrome connector with GM grips and pure GM tires. Right? You get the pictures that were there doing that where the GM rubbers remember like the brake hoods of diet calm. And Camplin, yo. It’s like that kind of GM rubber on the tires and the grip and had a free coaster. And I said to the young man, that’s three coasters on the 509 99. like yours. Yep. So they’ve never ridden one Can I have to get down? Can I try it? She said, Yep. He got into town. You can kind of tell like I can kind of say like, he can kind of tell that I knew a little bit about bike. And so then I said, What about this one bike here and I said, I want one of those modern numbers because I said I just have a lot of reasons why I want one of these. Do you have one of these in a small because you know I’m an odd guy. And so he said no but I get when I said I’d like to get one of them I just bought a bike for $1,300 tax included all in for everything and all kinds of cool stuff at full retail because he deserved it. And that shop turned it and it was warm and inviting and welcoming and clean and the restroom was perfect and there’s clean fresh water to drink. And he was nice and he didn’t dampen my enthusiasm one bit but only allowed it to happen. And that’s what you can get from a tube to a multi-thousand dollar sale and I’d never done it Eddie Grayson attitude. You know, but it was beautiful and couldn’t believe it Fred and I got the super bind you bite with a dog gun, dropper seat book. I love those things. They’re the best things in the world both to get yourself a BMX Park riding a bike in one second and like a massive turbocharger climbing unit and the next because I get some gravity money Place. Holy smokes I’m 600 feet in 2.4 miles, it can be a 1500 plus. And it’s just so steep. Anyhow, I’ll talk about that later. But see, that’s the new experience that’s available to me. So because of my bicycle addiction, which this is where we can grow our business with clients, specifically, you want to really do some compounding and top of line business, get people hooked on different types of cycling and running around on two wheels, three wheels, four wheels, I don’t care. And you know what I cried out loud. Fred, when I was climbing with the first time on my property, he’s got some clear cut and different prairies and stuff. So in the book I call Sun Prairie, which is 250 steps to the steepest part of my property. So it’s just like eight floors of climbing, and I was going up there on my mountain bike in the lowest years harnesses possibly could and when I tipped over as a 58 year old duffer, the steepest part of the hill, I cried out to words lithium-ion Because we need to embrace everything that’s available to help people have a Stokes time. Because if you were at my level, in my property in my area, you would think of riding a bike because it’s as hard as it can possibly be, for me to go up for pitches on my road straight up without switchback in it in the lowest gear, anybody I got the lowest triple the new 12 on the back kind of a deal. And that experience is available to me and you know, then when I played with that free coaster, do you think in the back of this old bmxers mind, I’m going to wonder what it would be like when I’m bored in my shop or trying to think of a problem of tooling. When I rally around my shop with a BMX bike, wouldn’t it be kind of fun at 58 years old to learn how to go backwards on the bike because a free coaster bike lets you do it. And I could watch some YouTubes and tinker around and then have you know minor blood trauma injury like usually happens on BMX bikes, but I don’t want that anymore. Anyhow. Yeah. So here’s the other thing with aggressive agreeability and like it’s mainly like trying to get hired. Don’t forget that you’re trying to sell your services you’re trying to sell you, because the Internet has all this other stuff available. But what I got at this shop, you wouldn’t believe it. The first time I bought my bed in the break. I said, Oh, we got this huge disc on the back. I don’t know why they put some 200 and some millimeter diff on the back of this monster mountain bike. So it had a sickness anomaly. So it just grabbed and I thought maybe get pine SAP, maybe embedded it in. I’m trying to give the benefit of the doubt the company is like two hours on it. So I went to the shop and I said, Hey, I need to have you guys Marty just because they know who I am now and I never told you that. They figured it out a certain point. There’s three guys in the shot. It felt so good. Fred’s in the old days. You know, you’d go into a shop and get disrespected to some bald middle-aged guy and then got your bike that I know something about, like this whole situation. But they were really cool. And he after a while he goes, he said I figured it out. And then the guys in the back came out it right our plants in their shop. That was really cool. But I didn’t come in and say hey, I’m this guy in that Guy and I’m looking for a bro deal. And I said I only have two rules. When I shop with the local people I pay full retail for everything. And I don’t ever expect free labor or anything like that I pay full price on everything. Because as a community member, that’s great because we live in a state where we have a no-tech state right across the river. So in Washington, you better darn well be on your game because you got to punish the client or not. The client has beautiful roads and whatever we have in Washington because there’s some sales tax. So it’s beautifully collected over here, but you can go across the river and not have it well. If I choose to shop on this site, I better get something more for it right then Fred? Oh, man, I’m happy to pay the taxes. I don’t have to go into the city and back across the state line, the ridge that clogs up a little bit and I can have an experience and you know what, you know what he said as I last year, I said I love you guys. I said I got a local bike shop now and he said to consider it your third space or something like that. But then modern youngsters would say you know, so I go in there now and feel their way Water. And now I know I need an extra-large helmet, you know, setting a stocking cap under it. And they hooked up this brake pad problem, the brake disc thing and they did exactly what I wanted. I said that’s too big of a rotor for two-wheeled vehicles Give me something smaller. And there’s a cool spacer under the caliper and they said decent. I said can’t this cannot do that. And they said, yes, it can take care if it’s a different rant. Heck, no, I just want to go. And they said, Yeah, here’s this 180 boom. And I’m really happy with the rear brake on the pipe. Because when you’re going down the steep pits and your brake is grabbing, you lose all your security because you don’t want to get the tire and all of a sudden now, every time it rotating around, and you know, the thing about middle-aged guys, that is important to middle-aged gals or people that as we age, it isn’t about Guys, please. But it’s like the older we get the higher the consequence. So to support people, we have to enhance their skills and understanding of the vehicle as an obligation. That’s part of the safety package. In other words, yeah, you do the work, but then the human has to operate it and it’s not you. Those are some fun The mentals right? Have your work checked by someone the best test writer in the world is the client. You know, if you have a critical situation, I always invite the client in scheduled basis to come on and say, Hey, come on in here and your stuff and let’s go for a ride by your coffee. Because Doug on this trip would drive me crazy to Lady. Let’s get to the bottom of it. Right? And it’s just a little lubrication under McClure’s. You know, it’s just a little lubrication between she’s willing to do it, and it’s done. Because we did it together with her shoe on her bike, see, and that’s what it is. And when you have a victory like that with a client, say just you own them, and I don’t mean that in a bad way. It’s like you own their safety and their experience. And you get to like say, How do you feel what is the maximum experience for you? I never wanted to over 30 miles an hour down the hill. Well, we’re going to make sure your breaks are top of the line because you’re going to right now remember that you don’t have Do it once because if your hands both get cold and you can’t do nothing, you might not be able to stop. So figure out a way to, you know, use one for a while and then the other to kind of give one hand a break and a shake, you know, but never be caught with him too cold to just grab a break and stop if you need to. But you keep using those breaks down the hill, because if you don’t like going over 30 you don’t like going over 30 now you know me, Fred. That’s just a little blip. When I’m on a hill, it’s fun and exhilarating to go fast down the hill, but it’s not my duty to try to transfer that enthusiasm to other people, right. That’s not how professional My duty is to say if you’re scared going down hills it almost makes me emotional, because you could get hurt.

Chad Pickard  18:42

Have you signed up for a ride a daily extended service yet? What are you waiting for? It’s the extended service plan for your customers that pays you your shop rate for extended service and warranty claims. rides are only available to NBDA members and it’s only available at NBDA calm

Fred Clements  19:06

A good question for you, Brett would be, you know, as a service writer, as a bike retailer, you have all sorts of people all sorts of experience level all sorts of attitudes good and bad. You have said in the past stop thinking that customers are doing something wrong, even when they are, it’s your job to manage feelings, and to deliver possible action. It’s not your job to be right.

Brett Fleming  19:30

Yeah, here’s a good example like words matter. And one of the little word tracks I’ve never perfected, but here’s as good as I’ve got. So let me let you in on a clue about shifting because I’ve really struggled with shifting myself until I found out the one thing that’s an absolute fact, if it makes noise, it’s something I’m doing, that I might be able to and probably can do differently to not have noise. And I can be highly interactive with what’s going on precisely when that poor chain being asked to ram from one raw sprocket to another. It’s tricky, and it takes technique and understanding. But Doggone it, every time I make noise, I’m a kind of a gearhead, I can trace it back. I promise scientifically, there’s some little tiny thing that I could have timed differently or pushed a little this way or that way a little better. And it kind of sucks. But this is part of the game. And nowadays, it’s a lot less of a problem because let me tell you that we can make it a lot less about finance than we could before because we have some really terrific shifting vehicles nowadays. So it’s easy to deliver a precisely shifting vehicle provided you know hangers or Street and things like that.

Fred Clements  20:39

You’ve suggested never argue. So that raises the question to me. What do you consider arguing

Brett Fleming  20:45

what is arguing? arguing let’s start in the kind of in the way arguing should exist in a scientific argument, right? You know, a hanger titanium hanger takes 70 kilograms and force them. That force comes from somewhere. Isaac Newton says so You wrecked it. You were not covering it. Right? It can be that simple, right? That’s the truth. The company’s not going to warranty it. You know in the way I know it took 70 kilograms force when I knew that how fun it was to do the garage-style inventor and meet the engineering team met some guys with Shimano when I said I invented the derailleur hanger that they patented it ultimately and I said this titanium hanger take a lot of force to the to Leslie’s tongue. And the engineer from Shimano said yes 70 kilograms. I laugh I don’t know how you know that but it’s mass and respected. Don’t be you know, buggering up the argument even scientifically like, well, something dentist lady, you know, and it’s not covered. We’re still not going to cover it. Whatever, you know, none of that stuff matters to someone. So, but arguing would be well, you anything that makes him feel bad to hear. Let’s put it this way. It’s all about feelings for me because I’m trying get hired. And nobody wants to give money to someone that’s mean to them or not nice and inviting and helpful. So instead of like defining what arguing is, just say, I think I can kind of sum up how by Trump interaction. If someone walked in and you’re, you know, like, I was playing with some ladies that I was with two ladies that one of them is 50 and her sister similar age, and I said, Okay, usually ladies walking the bike shop, what’s going to happen? You know, someone might say, Oh, you need a cruiser hybrid. You know, and yet I say how did they not know that you were like, near bronze level, you know, swimmer or you know, downhill mountain type champion. They just can’t guess the people by that’s the first thing you never ever, ever do. Ever, is just people, you know, around because I went into a name the names of bad ones. I went into an Italian motorcycle dealership that very famous I was really curious about the WBC or some other brand of the airbag, you know suit, full airbag suit for motorcycle and you know how am I motorcycles? I got a few. Me and Fabio, he’s done the gorge. That’s my big joke. He owns property about 30 miles from me. Hey, you have a lot of motorcycles too, but, but I was under the suit in the dealership that cost $5,000 that I probably could afford. I wanted and I heard a compelling argument. And it meant the EBT could go on and case by off on one of my machines and airbags maybe save me and some guy sells me that argument. I would have bought it that day. But instead, I saw the CarsGuide Burton with the espresso lady. And then I stood under every gleaming Italian jewel with halogen lights. beautifully you know illustrating middle-aged guy. Yeah, six-figure income finally fit Nobody ever talked to me. Not even once. Everything was like I went now then it became an experiment of ignoring like, you know, I wonder if they would know. And then I had already driven upon an exotic Italian motorcycle brand new. I’m interested in this stuff. You know what, yeah, zero points for them. You know, and, you know, I had a heating and air conditioning person where they first started doing what I call like chopping the tree down one branch at a time. I walked up and is randomly showing me the ohms output on the Start capacitor for the compressor on a brand of heat pump to cheapest on the market. I just took it the garbage and buy a new one. So he’s doing that. Are you doing that? And he was checking the fuses on a 220 line? Well, if it was running, and it’s too funny, even one fuse out it wouldn’t have been run. And so why are you checking the continuity on the fuses and he was training some young guy and they were 15 minutes early. That made me mad. They said that 843 or 743 they said it’ll typically come early. And I said, Well, how early Are you saying, quarter till so that means you’re in my driveway, and I’m in my robe. You know, that’s how they started it all. Be on time. Keep your word. be simple. And then ask people what’s important to them. Ask people where they are in scale. Say, Hey, thanks for coming in. female clients, middle-aged, not racer body style. I don’t know nothing about you. I don’t care about your gender or nothing. Because guess what? Your hominid that’s gonna be dinking around on two wheels or three wheels or something. And I don’t know nothing about you. But I know a lot about bike and this kind of stuff and XYZ. And if you need some help with it, by golly, I’m the person right here to do it. So yeah, instead of arguing it’s like aggressively just say Hey, take care for coming in. Retail test these days, we have to make an impression on people. How can I just get right down to it and listen to you in a way that’s meaningful and efficient, and help you accomplish your goal? Now, I know that too cheesy and too tan, but that’s what they should feel right? That’s what I’m trying to push is the feeling that and I think

Fred Clements  26:17

you’ve given some talks on words to use. Do you have any words to use words not to use sometimes, you know, you don’t want to just someone has a need and you don’t know much about them. Are there some good words or ways to get into a conversation to know more about their needs? Fred, Fred.

Brett Fleming  26:38

You bring a bike in. This is like, hey, let me get to. First of all, I tell the sales people in the store to be scanned in the parking lot. They even remotely see someone coming in with a service bike. They dang well better get off of that internet. And run out there and say I’m looking for an excuse on this beautiful sunny day to get outside. Tonight. Hold your hands up. If you’re taking it to service, I can guide you to that awesome team and they’re ready to help. See, this has got a sticker on it. smartstore is that did you buy it from us? Yes, I did. Awesome. Well, thank you and can I help you with that getting into the okay with that? Sure. Sure. Hey, next time you load this in your trunk if you don’t mind I’ll give you a piece of foam that we use in that bites compact list and and we could put that on the lip of the trunk right here. And then that would keep it from scratching the bike you know for the occasional haul another bike if you do it a lot, you know, you probably would invest in the car rack eventually or immediately whatever you know, but we’re not talking about that just second let’s get this bike in. Just talk to the service soul you know and say Hey, tell me a little bit about it. You know what’s going on the bus is in trouble getting their truck gun it would you rather be out riding it? Well, yeah. Well, I was riding long and had this business right. Well done. done it. Let’s get that right if and if it’s anything made, let me just tell you how this works. We can do most of this stuff since you got it. My Thunder this You know, generous little situation, we really are committed to getting everybody back on the road as fast as possible. We don’t care about the rules. 30 days, this 90 days, that two years, you want to ride We are the barrier removal, folks. It has to leave here. I want you to know, we even have loaner bikes available. You have a routine. Some people have a routine, we’ll make sure it doesn’t get interrupted. You can live without it. You got others makes it easier for us. So we’ll figure this out. Now tell us what’s going on. And let’s see what we can figure out right? Yes, about words. You know him, right, Fred letson. We were not I in them. And the other thing that I really would like, whenever I talk about some little lesson that I’ve learned, I will respect the brands, if that’s okay, right? Because in the 60s Schwinn had a neat program in one of their books, you know, we could hear better if we got, you know, fresh in the horse’s mouth. But to summarize, they said when you build your service department, make sure that the service area is elevated so that the client like is presented into a workspace It is at an elevated level so it’s respected and important. So words matter and little teeny details matter. Like, don’t you ever hang a bike on a saddle nose in my store if you’re a professional because that’s not professional work, you could damage the bike that could fall off that you expose everybody to a lot of risks because you’re doing a lazy procedure because you’re not planting the vehicle securely mentioned in the BMW dealership as you know, we consider these cars on one forklift, Fred, check it out. I just shove a pallet under here. And I can get that BMW lifted with this forklift. Is that going to inspire confidence with the client? No, you know, it’s important to show them some respect. And if the bikes not we’re fixing you know, members. Let’s get doing my seminars where we just lay the magnet or the Pacific down on the floor in front of the service counter with both of us shaking our head like it’s roadkill. Would that ever feel good to anybody regarding Just have their station in life or the bike. No showing some respect and say, Would it be okay, okay, there’s a Pete Slotnick, when I give him, I can give you some great things A to Z, there’s the Z. Pete was a massive fan, would it be okay? If we put your bike in the stand. And when we do, because of these type of clamps that we have, we have to change your seat height to not hurt the frame, or the beautiful paint here is we want to carefully approach how we touch your product. So the other thing about word they have to be based in extreme respect for two types of property, friends, physical property of the bike, it’s theirs. You don’t have permission to touch my bikes ever, ever. You know that mountain bike did a drag do this trade show spread the only mountain bike I made for me with this decal of Brett blending on seat and back in the old days I actually had a million times on the seat tube who ruined the seat tube decal Pretty good, right? But there’s still some Stubbins of Brett Fleming on there when I built that baby in 1983 and I still ride it today. Well, if I sent that to a shop and they grabbed my already ruined decals and ruined a maroon deter that’s gonna really hurt my soul. Because they don’t have a right to. It’s my property, you know. So that’s how you have to have extreme respect for property, even the Pacific in the magnet. Oh, there’s another line, right thread. This bike ain’t worth fixing. Here’s the interpretation. I bet this bike got a lot of stories to tell enthusiastically presented right. And then Would it be okay if we put it in the stand and have a look and see if she’s totally a goner, or not? Sorry for the sheep. Have you seen a fan? Let’s look at this together. You and I both know this bike is dead. Can we bring it back to life in a way that works for both of us and is reasonable, right? Because I’m here to sell your service. I’ll take your money all day long to take this family heirloom. Hey Fred, members what you know, it’s a question I asked at every seminar. These are fun words. every bite mechanics horror, what we wake up at night, you know, the rusty magnet from the beach house that grandpa used to ride the dogs around the cul de sac. See, we didn’t know that right? So we know the rusty magnet from the beats comes in. And that’s bike mechanics are looking at that bike. And we all say, I don’t want to work on that one. I don’t want to work on this a Junker right, like a dead terrible bike is not worth fixing. Allegedly, right? So they come in and they have all three other shops in town said that’s not worth fixing. You know? So they finally bring it into my shop. And they say, Hey, we got to get this thing tuned out. And I say, yeah, alright, let’s take a look at it and see it’s pretty rugged shape. As you obviously know, hey, here’s the deal. We can fix this up to any level, you know, because my job is to sell your service. What’s the story on the bike? You know, tell me why you’re requesting the service search because I want to make sure that I recommend Something if you want my recommendation that’s appropriate to what you’ve got going on. Instead, I get to say it’s not worth fixing. And they say, Well, my dad died. And he had this bike at the beach house. And we always told him, he was gonna get killed on it, because we told him to get a dang tune up on it. And we know it’s not worth anything. But it’s dogs still alive. And it likes to go on the same ride and each house, you know, condominium complex deal and we thought hell would die if we ride the bike the way dad did. Can we at least pay these guys to make it so it can stop in the tires hold air. So we can take old breaths around the neighborhood one more time. So I get emotional and I tell that story because don’t mess with people’s property. That’s emotional. That’s mental, that’s physical. And there are so many blessings available to us. If we say you know what, we can never make these breaks safe. But if we put new ones on it will be safe. Okay, we don’t care. Dad buy it for hundred dollars and then Magna. We don’t care. Don’t you tell me I can’t have my dad’s bike, ride my damn dog around my neighborhood to see how it needs to be handled sensitive, but you can just so destroy somebody by disrespecting them and their property. So find out what the story is. And if it’s beat to death, to say a bit that by got a lot of stories to tell, how did you ride that far without crashing into something, man? That’s what I say to the BMX riders or something like that, right? You got to get enthusiastic about, like Pete Slotnick was another, he mastered another thing, get rid of the known time wasters. You know, the guy that has the 34 nine derailleur, and he wants to trade it for your 31 eight, but you already managed your inventory and you have what you need, right? You have the derailleur he needs it’s 40 bucks. Oh, but I only paid 30 for this one. And Can Can I just trade it and Pete would say well know, our inquiries, man is different than that. But here’s what we can do. I’ve got this one here, it’s 30 bucks. I’ll put it on the shelf back here. And if you need it, you just holler. In the meantime, I’m going to get back on this, because this customer is going to be back towards, he turned his back, smiling and walked away from the guy, the guy’s a deer in the headlights, and I’m watching my company resource payroll being used appropriately, because I want his payroll to go to the person that’s paying us. And I want him to process clients as efficiently as possible. And if there’s never going to be a deal, that’s how it’s going to be. There are really nice ways to handle it with this hyper enthusiastic smile well, and then he would finish it off by and that’s what we can offer. Well, I have it on the shelf, it’s 40 bucks. In the meantime, I gotta get back to this repair and that’s what I can offer. Turn around, walk away, and then the guy just has to make a decision. Am I gonna buy the drill you’re that’s just 10 feet. And pay the extra 10 bucks or am I just going to continue to irritate people in the world for that? $10? And if he’s that kind of a client that will irritate the heck out of someone for $10 then maybe we don’t want him but we can do it differently, can’t we? Now, Fred? Didn’t that seem like the way Pete did? It was like, you’d just be like, He’s so nice. And that guy’s gone. And he usually hangs out for half a day, pumping information, distracting McCann. So we have that obligation. We have that obligation to make sure that the time we’re building our bosses score is give them a good return on investment. How did I have a fun career? Not by being a bicycle lifestyle. I had a fun career by being the person that at 3am for three millionaires would be the guy that would could stapled the plywood to the window of the broken out store. The guy could write the check to the painting company because some guy clamped the stand on the guys beat to break $200 cycle art super restoration job. Whatever, right? That’s what I always was. So when it came to words, they always matter because unlike text and my emails when you know when you have a lot of people interacting with a lot of people. Now if I say that we fell short that, you know, some of these operations work out, but because of all that by gallery for instance, I facilitate the assembly of 10,000 bikes per year and 10,000 repairs per year. So, yeah, it’s hard to sleep at night sometimes. Are those breaks just tight? You know, is this tight? Is that tight? Always think about at night, that’s just like the stress of the surface manager. Is this tight? Is that tight? That’s all I think about at night. You know, one of our mechanic forgot to tighten the guys crank bolt properly that was left on the bench or something, he tightened it and then pulled it out for some other reason. It races up to the races. I got to tighten this bolt on your bike. I got to put the bolt back on your bike the arm was on and he somehow had the bolt on his bench. We got to go so race to crank fixing bolt. But similar type the crank was tightening. He pulled it off for some reason. So when he gets up the race site, second put that both in he goes Oh, cool I got plenty of time just finished Murray fitness training stuck on there with variable Oh, and I wanted to say the words matter Yes they do. And the other thing is we have to be hyper able to use our words to just invite people into a great experience. Me and john Friedrich you know, with this little you know SD scope crafter trying to figure out how to, like hey, we’re in charge of helping people have an experience, you know, like, I have a million dollars that one of these days on a nice sunny day. I’m going to take that free coaster bike down off the display at my local bike shop. And the owner Jess is gonna say she was there for a day Brett to like dig it Regent Street Gate Park is a skate park in my neighborhood is like world class and I would pump around or like the middle aged guy, no one would know that would they? Would you know that a middle aged guy workout best Evers get a super duper Park style BMX bike, and just go rockin in it. have escaped parked for a while just pump up and down the walls past an hour. It’s better than any stupid, you know, Stairmaster machine and then glass lined exercise places smells like people’s armpits. I’ll take out door on a bike. And there’s so many experiences to yet have read. I haven’t read a fat bike on Sam. haven’t read that bike on snow. I haven’t ridden a track bike on a track. Right. And so that was what I was gonna say. If we can facilitate go at all these different levels like hey, road bikes are cool, too. You know, I live in a motocross super town, Michigan, Washington, where my little farm is has the wushu go motocross nationals. I’m really into motorcycle too. And I have the motorcycle guys trained on bikes so it’s highly respected. And you just have to, you know, to push on the pegs and do what you need on a motorcycle. Where are you going to get that beautiful exercise, you know, so I’m having fun riding bikes and motorcycles in this wonderful area. And as soon as I moved to my farm, I wanted a new mountain bike with a dropper post. Because technologies are weird Fred and I told these youngsters at the store, I said, Do you see these pebbles on the site? I couldn’t afford the petals. And I got some current st pebbles, which are kind of the same really low profile mountain petals with all the pins in there and everything. And I also have these shoes called 510. But here’s the thing. They’re usually for, like, mountain bikers are serious with flat pedals with pins, right? And they’re phenomenal. But here’s what the kid said. That was right. He said, issues feels like clipless. And the young man was right. So then a middle aged guy, of course, you would want to buy the top of the line, you know, flat pedal type mountain shoe, because they afford all the same thing they do for the person looking for the high performance, but also protection. And, you know, the wonderful adhesion of the shoe to a pin thread. It’s so confidence inspiring. So the thing is, if you’re a middle aged guy like me that has a super fear of blunt trauma, injury and concussions and stuff, I just I want to know if there’s something that I can get That can help me from having that again. So those are some fun things. And then why shouldn’t you share that with every middle aged person? If you have a bike, I don’t care if it’s your grant, if your mother Fred, that’s riding a bike to the store, I might not put the pins up all the way. But she says, It’s raining here in Portland, my feet are always flipping off these pedals. And I’m a serious cyclist. I never want it to happen again. Well, Doug on it, maybe we could invite that opportunity, right? Like a guy like me, you’d never think that if I walked in your store. The bike that did it most for me was a Chrome, BMX bike was a free coaster, and gum tires, gum grip, I would buy instantly just for the look. But you’d never know that about a middle aged guy. So that experience, it’s the range of stuff that we want to share with our clients like, Hey, no matter what you choose to do, we’re going to honor it and support it even if it’s what we don’t do. So for instance, at bike gallery, we were in a big sophisticated bike town with our clients, all people and it’s just weird. There’s so much knowledge and so much opportunity to Dink around with bite, Chuck. Well, we weren’t Particularly committed to doing a great job with recumbents. Because we knew we couldn’t we sometimes would bring some in. But it’s hard when the staff, you know, universally aren’t perfectly knowledgeable. So we very often did referral to a place called Coventry. So we really, you know, did something like that, or if someone needs to, here’s another wonderful thing. Like, here’s how you interact with another bike shop, a client needed to camp peg parts. I said, Hey, I’d call up river city. Hey, Brandon, do you have a certain, you know, spring for this particular thing? He says, Yes, I do. Can you please hold it to this client? And they come in? Yes, I can. Right. That’s the kind of professional interaction I enjoyed for years. But when you do that for clients, but you also have it already set up at the other store with a friendly agreeable person, you know, to make and maybe spend less time there I keep coming back to you. But you know, it’s so funny when I bumped into Brandon because we our career spanned like a long, long time together as big competitors in the same town right. Top service managers of the top two shops. every interaction I had with him was like that and way Dave Ramsey’s operation is like, so fun to see how different shops achieve success. And that’s what’s fun about life business spreads. However, you’re doing it out there is fine, but just here’s the run world. Don’t be dirty. You know, can I talk about life in previous threads? Tell me when it’s appropriate. Let me make a crazy statement. I buy the tea drips off john Burke’s toilet in his basement. And I’ve seen Mike senior bear but a lot. Now, how did that happen? Well, because, you know, I worked for a big truck dealer and you know, I was able to enjoy some time in John’s backyard. And he has a wonderful home on the lake. And just like any other place when I went to the wonderful bathroom in the basement, I did my business and wiped off everybody else. He dropped just like I would because that’s how I live in the world. You know, and I don’t care. And then Mike dinner Do you know when I did some consulting for specialized, he was in that room ride bikes like every single day. Man in that locker room, you notice them getting the shorts on and going for a ride experience in the product. You know, it’s like, hey, let’s not all fight, we can all fight. You know, one the other. Everybody’s on the mission. And guess what the client don’t know nothing about these fights you silly people’s. You shouldn’t stand front. We can’t identify with brands, we are not brand aligners, we say here’s the brands we have chosen for these reasons. But once you get them, that’s where we can really shine. Once you get this stuff. See my job has always been once they have this stuff, right? It sucked. How did my skills grow? And how did I become a tool designer? Because I saw a lot of stuff getting ruined. I worked at a big operation I saw way too many frames the implant way too many saddles being altered and hopefully put back if you alter a saddle for the purpose of clamping ask permission from the client first. Then when you do ask them if the sight height they have is what is perfect. And should we record it and you know, make sure it’s put back in place, or do you need some help with that? Mm hmm. Opportunity. So You know, the BS of having to altra seatpost for the purpose of planting the perfect frame and the integrity of the finish surfaces is kind of a problem, but it should be handled first with permission then is it right and then when you do raise it turn it 90 degrees to indicate that it’s been grossly maladjusted for the purpose of servicing, which is like a jacking point. You know, make sure that we put it back to where we got it and everything we’ve touched we should improve a tune up in the tune up unless the plane bearing derail your police are swimming in oil and a little dust cap navy seal the industry required all that it required a very high level of standard and all the work that was done under my care. You know, here’s the thing when it comes to like bragging like who knows who and I, oh, I know this race or I don’t know any races and last night all the business people. I’ve been to the giant factories and into giant Phoenix and giant China factories in China, then the factories in Taiwan have been the you know, so many Shimano factory subcontractors in Japan. I don’t know the celebrities like the racist but I know the celebrity business people like I know how this stuff was made and what the barriers Here’s our here’s the barrier. We never received vehicles that are vehicle, they’re just specks in boxes. And we’re the ones that sign earnings the vehicle. So respect to john and Mike, two big guys, right? It was me that signed my name for them 10s of thousands of times, right? It’s like, I delivered the vehicles and signed the name that these vehicles were safe and sound. So that my bosses, my wonderful boss that really earned the success that they had, were protected and insulated from needs of mechanical and dangerous stuff. It’s hard. It’s hard to get 35 mechanics, you know, through seven stores and you know, like I say 10,000 transactions a year. We did really darn good. We did really darn good. But when we failed, it was so avoidable. Right. Whenever we failed, it was avoidable. You know, and by failing I mean, I had to practice for the third time and for the same problem the client has to see Brett, so I was the general service and training manager for the bike gallery stores in Port In Oregon, I started there, in 99. It’s a company that no longer exists, I can talk all I want about it and finance, I didn’t sign a nondisclosure that I can’t I’m not gonna say anything to proprietary, but when I started in 99, the service departments just limping along at the quarter million. And by the time I left in 14, it was 1.1 million with about a million dollars, you know, service payroll. So I felt really proud that we were able to cover the payroll in a service operation where the sales department, you know, gets what they get for free, basically, you know, assembly of the new product, and you know, support thereafter, right, and the use of the service department in getting the new product out the door in other ways, you know, pre delivery and post delivery stuff like that. So we just tried to make it legitimate up there. And you know, Jay did that was really cool when you’re hired yet tonight, the 99 he hired me to turn that place around and it was fun, because my first rule is say yes to everyone. When I turn a service department on I only did it twice for gene and the bike rack in Omaha. And for like Galleria in Portland, to say yes, everybody enthusiastically so and have a nice, clean, well stocked restroom that isn’t great. And try to have air conditioning that makes the climate more comfortable for the client. Those are the things I did in my life. You know, I gave a cool mechanic named Jay Z to the kid rather than being done BMX or drinking, but Dr. peppers and stuff made him look like a daggone mess that it’s hard to get hired, even though he’s the most amazing person in the world. For the client, like the most superstar like you’re the client jgs Anya, holy Look, you’re gonna have an experience, legit, because the guy just lives and breathes by. But I said, Dude, I want to get you hired. And I want to get you on down here and get to Dempsey, because you’re cheated out of so much opportunity because of that bias. You know, your smile, even though it’s kind of you know, not too great. After 15 seconds we don’t care because of your life energy bubbles. Ah, but get that handled. So that’s what I’m proud of threads that I helped mechanic get a set of teeth or, you know, hearing my proudest moment in the world was this. And it was at some seminar, I was somewhere for a company and this young mechanic comes up to me who you know, Those faces of the kids that never even lived on the street or whatever they might be 32 but they look like they’re more like 48 You know, he had a rough life. You could just tell, you know, drugs and street stuff at one point, homelessness. This is the later story, but you can just read a kid’s face, right? So he comes up to me all beaming and he says, Brett, you changed my life. That’s what he mean. He said, I’m 32 years old. I support a deaf wife. And deaf people are discriminated against. It’s hard for them to find employment. I’m proud that I can do that in the town I live. And we have a baby on the way and have a successful bike mechanic for four years or so at this shop. And it’s because of you. That’s what he’s talking about it. He said, my bosses went to one of your seminars once never young, starting the business and I remember him hadn’t even opened it yet, but they’re ready to and they were bright eyed and excited. And they said what can we do to really be successful, the best thing We can find a mechanic, you knew from an unlikely source like maybe a high school dropout or that usually you want to have some follow through, or maybe a kid that’s had a rough life or maybe it’d be a nice kid especially because if you find a BMX head type headset that’s, you know, just even from an unlikely source, find them and develop them because it’s going to take about five years. And then when you lay down your head at night, you know, then brake levers are tight. And, you know, the brake band was tightened on the coaster brake. And that if you really needed to, someone would go staple a piece of plywood over the Windows Store if you were in France, right in your dream, right? Because if you invest in them, they’ll have your back in a really great way. You know, they’ll give you loyalty. And so they took that advice and hired this chair and developed him and buys him every tool he needs and gives him a good salary and benefits and I’m proud of that. I don’t know any fancy celebrities. I don’t even remember the name, Fred. But there’s the moment that I’d love to brag about that I convinced the shop to say Holy crap, these little dirt bags, they got our back, treat them with respect because they don’t have any tools or engineering or nothing. They don’t have vehicles within the engineering protocol. We can’t plug these into a computer. No one tested, the drive trains, the brake, like crazy fluids worked out everywhere, or doesn’t. You know, it’s hard. We get no labor for what we do. We’re scratching out there on our own. So give them every resource, don’t cheat them out of tools and equipment, availability of you know, find an information they need to not screw up your customers work. It’s all about that, like you know, what I’m most proud of is 10s and 10s of thousands of invoices where I took people’s money under official banner when the business hours were open, as representative of the top examples of the brands, you know, you mentioned, you know, I was the factory factory mechanic, I had dialogue, you know, with our biggest vendor for years and years with Jeff G. And it’s like he knew who I was. He knew that if I presented something, I was competent. They didn’t treat me terribly, they really, I knew that the company that I was dealing with back here in Wisconsin, and ultimately had the clients back, you know, they really hooked me up most the time, like most of the times I’ve done it, and then that was really awesome, because then I didn’t have to worry the client didn’t need to know whether I’d get hooked up on the backside. I just said, Listen, we got to get you back out there riding again. You know, when I used to open up the training seminar bike gallery, this would be like 100 people at the no annual dealer, not that many, maybe 80. Whatever, and I get to say some, I’d say who’s the newest person here. Some poor little 19 year old dog from read or something. Raise Your Hand me the you know that right now you could if a client needed a 62 centimeter high end, you know dirt equipped road bike because there’s there’s something even lesser was being warrantied you could loan them Jay graves his bike, go to his office and to take give it to them, you know that one that signed by the you know, most world famous guy. You could give them that bike and loan it to him so he could keep riding to train for that ride that’s important to him. Did you know that you’re empowered to do that on day number one? No. I said, Jay, is that true? And he’s shaking his head. Yes. Because we have no funner time in the whole world and finding some crazy ridiculous solution to keep that plant going uninterrupted in an enthusiastic supported way where we didn’t make it hard for them. You know, that? Yeah. Don’t argue with people like they Hey, it’s hard out there. Yeah, shifting tricky. thing is really tricky. If you’re open to it, I can give you some of the stuff that I learned to make it better for me anyhow. And if that works for you, and you’re open to it, I’d share that. Otherwise, you know, here’s some things you know, that I found on the bike, because it isn’t all about you. I found some stuff. Check this out. I figured out this table tension here. Here’s the thing, clients, everybody listening to this professional. If a customer comes back to your store to turn in adjusting barrel fix shifting, you are delivering a high low, low, low, low, low level of competence in your service department. Because that my friends, notice the shape of it. It’s made for the client. The adjusting bear was made for us when I bought my bike. First thing I did is Dink around with my reach adjusters on my $4,500 retail mountain bike. Because I can’t and I know that it needs to be you know, so this stuff has to be you know, carefully managed.

Chad Pickard  54:54

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Fred Clements  55:08

Sort of a final question. I think we’re sort of getting towards the end. But you’ve worked in a multi-store chain at the bike gallery, you’ve worked in other large stores. How do you get buy-in? You mentioned you have training for your staff, you know, you have what bicolor had five or six locations, I think and what do you do as a manager to assure that each of the locations each of your people is kind of into what you’re thinking and sort of up to speed.

Brett Fleming  55:36

You fired the people that have ever had feedback that read like I felt disrespected and not listened to. Because there’s always going to be, you know, one or two of those that have been allowed to stay along too long because of competency. So at any given time, there were people sorry for when you got fired. It wasn’t a random event. It was with deep heartfelt discussion and sadness, sadness that people I couldn’t figure out how to engage with clients respectfully but so I just tell stories of how important this is to people. You know, like, Oh, I’d love the whole thing where I could just tell the story. But you just don’t know what a bike is doing for someone so enthusiastically approach every single one. As if they’re the most important person in the world that even the boss himself would come out and do this for you and make sure that it really was okay and wouldn’t send a survey later would be right at the table. You know, it kept a couple years ago we went to this nice family Italian restaurant. Oh my gosh, neat. because it’d be exact right point. The chef comes out and checked in with everybody in an earnest way. It’s very interesting with tomato sauce for a friend and you know, it was just so beautiful and the way the waiter interacted with the disabled girl, but Oh, would you like your? She said, you know, what would you like today, and she wasn’t able to Respond the disabled girl. So without a heartbeat, the server said, well, we’ll give you your regular. And that was one perfectly How can you be that good in so few seconds, you know. And you know, and when Oh, here’s the other thing, when a customer called us the same restaurant to the over busy server, and said, what you put in the bag wasn’t what I wanted. I want to say it’s not a soup and a salad. And she had the order down and everybody knew they ordered a salad. But when he got home, somebody was mad, and they both wanted to. So in a microsecond, all she said was no problem. I’ll get the order in right away. You know, no problem. I get the new order and right away, like instantly, we’re going to get you the food you want. We’re not going to talk about what you ordered, whether you’re right or wrong. And I asked her about it. And she says, Oh, it’s too easy. You get into the people’s. You see this person wants to talk this person doesn’t want To talk, I said no lady is not easy. It’s highly sophisticated, isn’t it? And she said, Yes, it is. It is. Some people want to be chatty. And some people want to get the heck out of there. Right? And you have a respect to show, find out where people are. Hey, you know, I see, you know, one another word track visit. Do you have any time constraints? You know, what are your turnaround expectations? Before we get started? We’re a little busy, we’ll have an option for you. We will have an option for you. But maybe not the fullest option to get you back on the road. Does that make sense? Never say we can’t get that tune-up. Sorry. Go away. Are you kidding, Fred? This train wreck of that entire life of that human being that went through all of those things. And though Sam’s formula, remember the time plus money equals j plus m like, Hey, we’re selling time and money, but we’re selling joy, and accomplishment and success. That’s delivered by the Macan. So that was like a philosophy a guy named Sam, somewhere in Minneapolis he could get he said Brett after seminar, you’re missing one important points is all about opportunity cost. If someone comes into your retail establishment is given up what this economist can measure as literally millions of other things. That’s what I want to end this interview with Cincinnatus. Remember, if someone came into your store, they got daycare, they got parking they got scratching their trunk from having to bring that damn thing back for a stupid adjusting barrel that you should have done. Are you kidding me and empower them to do it. So hey, you can’t go wrong with these suckers. Just grab one of these adjusting barrels and turn that sucker till it doesn’t shift and then go back clockwise again and you’ll be good to go. You know or something like that some nice way of explaining how it works. You know, you’ll be empowered when I show people that learn cycle Oregon do these clinics. And when you show people that they themselves can adjust their shifting with a cable adjustment as simple as the barrel adjuster. I’ve never had a client That their bike mechanic told them that isn’t that sad. They’re out there riding, not shifting on a vacation because it’s something they could just stop and turn something to half a turn and try it again and turn it another turn and try it again, and probably be happy. And that’s all we would have told them. So that’s where the words matters to, Hey, where are you on the scale? Do you want any words or not? Because some of them don’t want work? I want it to buy 99 you need a press developer or trade USA you need presto trader, you can say do you need pressors trader? You know, the one like on the car, or the funny one, right? You give them an out? You never put that’s another way you argue with people that you put them through all these tests. Is it Presta Schrader now? It’s hard. There’s a lot of different sizes. Oh my god, I would never shop there again. I would run out of that store. Like Why are you scolding me? I gave up everything in my life to come into a bicycle shop. Which I love bicycles, don’t you? Why are you so mean to me? I’m sensitive. You know? It’s easier No wonder the answers do Amazon equipment shift retails a bunch of mean people.

Fred Clements  1:01:06

effect breathe. One of them on my notes here from one of your seminars was a quote it is unacceptable to be a curmudgeon. And absolutely, that was pretty good. But I guess we’re pretty much done here. At least I’ve asked all that I have you know, Brett Fleming Efficient Velo Tools, email address, Brett, with two T’s at efficient vello.com Brett’s done, as obviously speaking and consulting with retailers in his tool business is what pays the bills. So thank you, Brett, for being here. Anything you wanted to add, as we wrap up here?

Brett Fleming  1:01:40

Hey, we’re trying to get hired to help people have an experience that sometimes it’s a practical experience. Sometimes it’s a joyful experience. And don’t we owe it to them to just do a little bit of an interview? Like, Think of it as an interview? It’s like, hey, you’ve given up a lot to get here. What can we know about you to make sure we do Deliver you a success because we’ve got a lot of stuff available. Even the boss’s bike. I’m serious, man. If you need to keep riding, I’m going to take the boss’s bike, dude. I mean, you’re just chained to the situation. Right? I say, Jay, I’m gonna take one of your BMX bikes. This kid’s, like, just really addicted to writing. It’s his medicine, he has ADHD and, you know, otherwise he’d be in jail. You know, who knows? Because you don’t know that story. Do your friend. That’s the main thing. You don’t know the story. Gently find out and respect people’s property, both mental and physical, and say, hey, how can we succeed for you because I’d like to get hired and help you have a great bicycle journey, or motorcycle journey or whatever it is, you know, trike journey. I don’t care if I’m a service professional. I’m trying to get hired. And you know, maybe I’m trying to get hired in my own brain to facilitate a joyful experience of gliding through the atmosphere carbon running down a trail like an animal, feeling Fast Company The goal getting to work, it’s all good. You know, and I was so happy to have procured that type of experience for so long. And here’s the greatest thing. Bosses don’t cheap out ever, and I never had to I was fully empowered. The last story is a poor woman who comes in with a custom bike custom geometry and she’s like knee short. I understand short, women’s stuff a lot because I ride their bike. When I get to test them, they’re the only ones that fit in Yeah, she had this liking we had talked about total overlap in the bike cost about 30 $500 is not an expensive custom that is mostly the frame, but that’s pretty expensive. So the chocolate overlap was tested. She tried writing at once, and it scared her. And she became fearful of the bike and never touched it for two years. And she came into the store one day with the bike and she’s crying. I get these salts, which is I’m glad I get the socks because that’s serious business and I said, Hey, what’s going on? Well, I bought this bike and I’m spooked about it. I’m just never going to Right. Even though I understood it had to clip overlap, I didn’t know what that meant. And that scares me and I’m afraid to get hurt. I said, Well, I give you all your money back. What? Yes, they do. I don’t want that out in the world. And if we blow you away like this, and just give your money back and take this terrible, terrible feeling away, all I would ask is that you tell people how it actually went down. And then we can sell the bike and recover from it so I can make that decision. And I was honored to have been empowered to be at that level in my career. Like, do you want to brag about stuff? I’m glad I could. And the one lady just changing her shifter angle 12 degrees completely, remarkably changed her shifting after we’d struggled for five different visits, to give her success when I went for a ride with her, and with the same shift and she goes, Oh my God, if you shift gears It was like, heck, yeah, baby. Let’s go for it. And we went on a fun ride. And with that, I am smiling about what it was I did for a living Fred, thanks for allowing me this interview. Thanks, listeners, whatever, if yet you do listen to this and thrive in a city joyful place to try another wonderful new employee. She has a neat little dog, whose ear is that down just to match our worthless dog here. So I’m happy and it’s funny. That’s the other thing spreads. It’s tiny and Mount Hood is out and just gorgeous. So is there anything else I need to? I’ll shut up? There you go.

Fred Clements  1:05:21

Now, I think we’re done. Thank you for it. So thank you, Brett. Thank you, NBDA. And I think we’re out for today.

Brett Fleming  1:05:28

All right, thank you so much.

Rod Judd  1:05:29

This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership, and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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After spending 12 years as a writer and editor, Fred Clements worked as executive director and vice president for the National Bicycle Dealers Association for 28 years. He then moved to Interbike in a retail relations role, later transitioning into consulting. He enjoys helping the NBDA with podcasts from time to time and rides about 3,500 miles each year on his road bike.

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

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Rodd & Kristi Mohn- Dirty Kanza

Tue, 8/18 10:43AM • 33:47

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gravel, bike, event, ride, women, dirty, bike shops, people, community, miles, year, emporia, cycling, distance, big, pretty, bicycle, bit, finish line, find

SPEAKERS

Rod Judd, Kristi Mohn, Chad Pickard, Rachelle Schouten

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. Hello and welcome to bicycle retail radio. This is Rod Judd from people for bikes and I’m here today interviewing with Kristi Mohn, the marketing manager for the dirty Kansa, and all-around ambassador for all things gravel and bicycle participation. So welcome Christy, how are you?

Kristi Mohn  00:35

I’m great, Ron, how are you?

Rod Judd  00:37

I’m good. Thank you for joining us. So it’s great to be talking again.

Kristi Mohn  00:41

It’s a pleasure, for sure.

Rod Judd  00:43

Good. I wanted to get some insights into what you’re doing with the event this year and you’re sort of overall strategy. Tell us a little bit about your background as a bike enthusiast and you know what drew you to get involved in events in general?

Kristi Mohn  01:00

Well, you know, a lot of it just came down to health and fitness. At the core of it. I was a fairly avid runner in my late teens and early 20s. And as I grew older, I realized that running and my knees and my lower back are not jiving. And in through that process had also been working hard to get my husband to find something to do to stay in shape, and he turned to cycling, which meant eventually that I kind of turned to cycling as well. So it’s pretty organic how I came into it, and that was about 18 years ago. So

Rod Judd  01:34

how did you discover gravel?

Kristi Mohn  01:36

Well, if you’ve ever been to Emporia, Kansas, it’s pretty easy to see how he discovered gravel. Only about two paved routes that you can really ride around this community. But the gravel options are absolutely endless. So it really was pretty much a no brainer. And, you know, it really lends itself I think, to the type of writing that I like to do, which is a little bit more of an adventure. style. I also like the idea of the kind of being out there solo and away from things giving me lots of time to think and explore. So, gravel here was pretty natural, just because of where we fit in the country. So

Rod Judd  02:14

Sure. And of course, you’re a black business person that’s involved in many things. Mm-hmm. Tell me a little bit about, you know, what you’re doing in the black business in general. And, you know, what’s your take on the impact of gravel as a category for black businesses?

Kristi Mohn  02:29

Well, I think it’s been, you know, most people don’t really understand that dirty Kansa has been around for 2006. So this is actually going to be our 15th year of the event. I think gravel has become a very natural evolution of the process of where people are becoming, we’re seeing more and more distracted drivers, the roads are becoming less safe. gravel gives you that opportunity to get off the grid a little bit more and with how we are so connected, in our day to day lives anymore, it’s a reprieve from what we do. 24 seven, they So I think gravel has become a pretty natural evolution of where I would have anticipated the industry to go. I also think it really lends itself to the community, at least in my world It does. And that becomes something. In my mind, that’s really important too. So I think that’s why we’ve seen such a big boom and gravel. It’s just a safer environment and it’s more community-friendly.

Rod Judd  03:26

Okay. Where do you see it going next? You know, obviously, the styles and the technology with gravel bikes is changing. Sea stepping next.

Kristi Mohn  03:36

Well, I hope it continues to grow and bring in more and more people into the sport. And I think that that’s going to be you know, with the evolution of bikes becoming more comfortable and more durable and safer and more. You know, like I said, more comfortable to ride I think we’ll see more and more people choosing to explore the world on two wheels on gravel. And I think that there’s also you know, a lot of these bikes also work well as kind of a do-anything bike. Which I think is also important because if I can be a significant investment, you can have your bike also serve as a commuter bike or a bike Packer bike. And I think all of those things lend themselves well to gravel and to enter gravel bikes in that industry and that sector of the industry.

Rod Judd  04:15

Okay. You mentioned you know, you’re being involved with your husband and writing, what’s the appeal for you still about gravel, why he’s in love with this category, as it is in 2020.

Kristi Mohn  04:29

There’s just in my book, there’s no better way to explore the country, then on two wheels. I like it, because of the distances you can go in the time that you’re allowed. I think because the industry has grown up so much, you know, over the last 15 years, that it’s great because you have all of these different gravel events now that are popping up in all different places. that those are always at least two the all of the ones I’ve been to have been put on by people that are super passionate about the community that they’re in about gravel, and about the location that they’re doing these in. And it means that I can kind of, you know, thank my block on going and spending a great weekend around a great group of people and getting to see some of the best parts of nature in that area on two wheels. I just, I don’t see anything better as far as a way to explore the world on two wheels, as you know, attending these events and, and checking out these areas that people are finding things that they’re passionate about in it. That’s part of the reason I love doing it. And it’s also the solitude that will come from that to exploring those roads when you’re just going out for a test ride and whatnot. It’s pretty awesome.

Rod Judd  05:41

Yeah, that’s great. You know, in terms of events, tell us about your personal experience, riding an event like the dirty Kansa Do you remember the first time you rode? Tell us what it was like perhaps for people who, who haven’t had the pleasure of writing something like that?

Kristi Mohn  05:58

I’ve only been able to do dirty Kansa, two times, the first time was in 2010. And it was kind of I joined the promotions team after the 2008 event. And my husband was one of the original 34 riders back in 2006. And when I came and got to ride the event in 2010, it was right before we were kind of starting is the very first year we moved downtown. And I was pretty anxious about being on course versus being at the finish line because it was something new, but at the same time, dirty Kansa was much smaller than but my goal that year was truly to prove to myself that I could ride 200 miles in one day. So it was simply a finishing goal. And, you know, what would I tell people to expect I mean, it’s obviously a long day on the saddle. You need to know how to feed yourself and how to take care of your bike and all of those sorts of things that we tell you about their real my day ended, I slashed my tire pretty significantly, with about 30 miles to go. And ultimately, the repair didn’t hold. And so I finally called it with around 13 miles left or so and had my husband come pick me up.  But I think a lot of people saw that as disappointing, but in my mind, my goal was to ride 200 miles. And when I got to that point, I was like, I got it, like, I know I can do it. And it kind of, I mean, although I wanted to finish dirty Kansa I also wasn’t disappointed because I felt like I had met an expectation of myself. The team of race promoters at the time is, you know, Jim Cummins, who’s the founder, Leland Danes, who we brought in, and then my husband and myself at the time, the three guys basically came to me in 2017, and they were like, Hey, you want to try to ride it again? Which of course, you know, I did. So I wrote it again in 2018. And that one had my full attention, like, all the training, I didn’t miss a single training ride, hired a coach all of those things, but You know, on that one, it was really, I spent a lot more time I did my homework, I knew what to expect I put the work in. And I really my biggest tip on that from that ride and my biggest takeaway was to ride your race. You know, I didn’t commit to riding with anybody. I didn’t make any of those promises. I just decided to do the very best I could, at my own pace that day on the bike and, and of course, was very dialed with my nutrition and my speed zones. You know, when we got into the checkpoints, know exactly what I was doing and had a really big game plan and ultimately led to a really good success, which was super exciting. One of the things about Kansas, you really don’t know how Kansa is going to play with you that day. You know, you get to do one part of the race, but the rest of it’s up to the elements that you face when you go out there is a good day.

Rod Judd  08:43

Amazing. You mentioned you know the appeal of solitude on a good gravel ride. Tell me about what is some of the highs and lows that go through your head during an event like the dirty Kansa What do you find yourself going mental

Kristi Mohn  09:01

I think a lot of it for me is just the game that I end up playing with myself is that the part of me that tells me that I’m going to quit right now, you know, everybody talks about that. But what’s happened is, the more events I’ve done like this, and the longer I’ve been riding my bike like this, that voice is completely out shadowed by this other part of my brain that like, that’s just nonsense, you know, you’re not going to quit. So stop talking to yourself like that. It’s just the internal dialogue that I end up having where it’s basically coming out to the fact that, you know, I’ve committed to doing something and I really, really want to see it through the best of my ability. Of course, I’m going to be smart and I’m not gonna put myself in danger physically, but at the same time, it’s learning to grasp those highs and lows that you have when you’re out there and talk yourself through it and the way you can then take that and apply it to your everyday life and how you work with people in your day jobs is pretty amazing how that kind of I’m not going to quit attitude can prevail and help you be successful off the bike too. And That’s one of my biggest joys from it.

Rod Judd  10:02

That’s great. It’s powerful stuff. Okay, so for a brand new participant, you know, when you’re out there talking with folks who, you know, well, maybe intimidated, how would you describe your events to a first-timer?

Kristi Mohn  10:17

Well, I think that’s an interesting question, Rob. Because in my mind, dirty Kansa really consists of several different distances. And we’ve done that on purpose that allows you to bite off what you think you can chew and help you grow. And I think that’s what I would prefer to people when they, you know, I get people to call all the time, this is I’m not quite sure about the 200. And talking them through what that would look like and how that would relate and what they’re trying to do, and helping them make the decision of what distances may be the right distance for them where they can be successful, but still, be challenged. And it’s one thing that I really like about our event is that we do have a distance starting as small as 25 miles or as short as 25 miles. I shouldn’t say small because, for some people, that’s a really big deal. We’ve had people that have done the 50 miles that’s taken them nine hours to ride 50 miles. And when you consider that column Strickland last year finished in just under 10, he almost you know, triple lap, the 50, miler, and all intents and purposes. So I think it’s really, you know, for our event, it’s finding the distance that’s going to fit you and challenge you the best and make you feel accomplished. And that’s really kind of more of my focus and my drive at this point, then, you know, saying you have to do the 200 to have it be of any worth. It’s really finding something that’s going to meet your goal and where you’re at in your life and still gonna provide you that experience that you’re looking for.

Rachelle Schouten  11:41

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Rod Judd  12:39

You mentioned your husband was involved in the first 36 or so riders back when the event began. Do you know what motivated the introduction of this right, you know, why did they choose to create the dirty Kansa?

Kristi Mohn  12:53

Well, Jim Cummins and zoldyck our two founders had done trans Iowa, which is a 350-mile distance up in Iowa with Mark Stevenson up there, and they came back inspired from that. So the very first trans-Iowa took place in 2015 with the dirty Kansa on a deal taking place, this first event taking place in 2016. The takeaways they had from that was that 350 seems a bit unapproachable for I mean, 200 miles is a long way, you know, the DK now has the Excel distance, which is 350. But tuner miles is a long way, but they took away the distance might have been too long for just kind of your weekend warrior types. And they also did instead of a point to point ride, which was what Tran Seibel was that year, they did a loop so that you had to leave and get back to Emporia. So those were the big two differences between trans Iowa and dirty Kansa in that first year. That’s that’s what had inspired the event.

Rod Judd  13:47

So you’ve had some experience now with a number of iterations of the dirty Kansa. What are some of the things that you’ve learned from other races or perhaps that you’ve learned yourself that aren’t necessarily written down anywhere in terms of how to prepare, what’s the best way to get the best result out of the event? And what’s the best way to be satisfied with your experience there?

Kristi Mohn  14:12

Well, I think the big takeaway that I’ve learned from all of these events is, you know, watching the finish line, which is where I spend, most of my details are spent at the finish line. And I think, for me, the biggest takeaway is always that you’re, you’re so much more capable than what you think you’re capable of, you know, our abilities really can go beyond what we think we can do. And it’s the DK finish line, and many others out there too, are just such an emotional experience to see somebody that has made these goals for themselves, realize these goals. And it’s really cool too because I think sometimes what gets overlooked a little bit is watching those family members meet some of my biggest tugs that I’ve had at the BK finish line have been you know, not only with the finisher but then going over and hugging that family member. That’s been there. For them on their training ride was there for them in those support towns, it really the concept of bringing that community together and bringing families together and friends together is so prevalent at a race like dirty Kansa. And that, to me is just always a big takeaway. It’s just it just recharges your soul and your batteries to watch one of those finish lines.

Rod Judd  15:19

Great. Let’s talk a little bit about Lifetime’s involvement in the event, of course, lifetime acquired the event A few years ago. What does having a company from the health and wellness space bring to this event? Where do you see the great value there?

Kristi Mohn  15:36

The extra hands on deck, the extra resources have been just, there’s just no value to it. It’s enormous. We needed it. And we appreciate, you know, from the employer community and from the employment event staff. You know, we love the fact that we have a network of people and a team of people that can help pull this event off. It just was to the point where it was really difficult for people. And even though I mean, our volunteer crew is just top-notch, it’s still a lot on for people to pull off on that weekend. So it’s really nice to have, you know, last year was our first year with Lifetime in Emporia helping us and I went home on Thursday evening and took a shower. Which was, you know, a first in many years where, you know, the event starts or 30, you know, Wednesday evening gets here, and it’s pretty much a run till Sunday after the award ceremony. And it was amazing to be we were all sitting in the office kind of looking at each other going, you know, what should we do, and I think all four of us went home and took a shower before the evening gets together that evening, which was, you know, all because we had extra hands on deck help and get everything done. And it was just, it was an incredible feeling to know that that we had we chosen right and we picked an organization that was there to help and support us. So it was a really good feeling.

Rod Judd  16:56

Sure. Talk a little bit more about you know what it takes To put on the event, you know, how many volunteers are we talking about? and staff? What’s the heavy lifting? What goes into it?

Kristi Mohn  17:07

Our event services manager would have to get you the number of volunteers and pass. I don’t know, I even hate to. I even hate to take a guest. Yeah, I know. It’s probably 300 or so something like that. And I might be shy, I don’t know. And I’m sure she’s told me. But it’s one of those things where it’s for me, it doesn’t hit me right in the gut like it’s kind of in one ear out the other. But we’ve worked. I think one of the things that I’m super proud of is how we’ve worked with so many of these community organizations to help them use dirty Kansa as a fundraiser for themselves or help them generate funds to give you so we’re giving back to the community that way. And I think last year’s fundraising totals for all our organizations that we worked with was close to $100,000 from that weekend, and that’s, I mean, from a kid from Emporia to be able to impact my community like that is just really helped. bowling.

Rod Judd  18:01

Yeah, and talk a little bit more pleased about, you know what this means to the city. You know, obviously bicycling can have a great impact on local economies. Please share your thoughts and impressions on what it means to aporia.

Kristi Mohn  18:15

Well, I mean, last year’s study that they conducted after dirty Kansa weekend alone was a giveback of around $5.5 million. I think. So super substantial. And I think that the impact resonates throughout the year. We have people come and ride bikes in Emporia year-round, not just dirty Kansa weekend. So you know from that perspective, we don’t even know the calculation that the as a little race that could is sometimes what I call dirty Kansa or race it could it’s like what is it actually impacting in Korea with and I think it’s it’s a lot of notoriety and a lot of people that come here to ride your round, which is great. Right?

Rod Judd  18:54

You are clearly motivated by the passion for getting more people to ride with you. is obviously, you know, very important to all aspects of businesses and you know, in my opinion, to communities in general, talk a little bit about your motivation for getting women to ride wise women,

Kristi Mohn  19:15

it really came from the fact that when I joined the cycling community here, and in the Midwest, they’re just there wasn’t a ton of us out there. And I didn’t understand why. And I think it boils down to a lot of it is, you know, some intimidation and not necessarily the support networks that women were looking for in there. And I just really felt like coming from a running background too, and I’d seen, you know, 51% female participation in events. And on the running side, I didn’t understand why it wasn’t there on the writing side, because the cycling in my book was easier, more fun, more community-driven and something way easier to share with a friend or a husband or a significant other, whatever it is. Didn’t make sense. And I think it just became a passion for me that I wanted to get more women out there from the competition side and from the camaraderie side and from the fact that I didn’t want women missing out on what gravel was about. And I wanted that shared experience with them. Excellent. Maybe a little bit selfish. Like that. Yeah. Thinking about it from that perspective, like, you know, let’s, let’s do this.

Rod Judd  20:25

There’s nothing wrong with that. If it’s for the greater good, right. Totally. Some of the interactions you’ve had with women during your cycling career, you know, can you speak to a specific example where you really felt like you changed somebody’s life through cycling?

Kristi Mohn  20:41

That seems pretty presumptuous. I can talk about like, I mean, I suppose I probably have changed some women’s life and that perspective. I think, more of what I think about is and you know, I’ve used and named a couple of times this year but and gentle, who is a writer from Nebraska She’s been to a couple of BK camps. She inspires me greatly. She was on the docket to ride the DK 200. Last year and at Camp after just watching her ride and get through some stuff. I had a conversation with her where I, you know, I said, I think the 200 is you’re biting off more than you can chew. And I really want to see you finish. And I knew she had done some other distance events that she hadn’t completed and worked with her to do the 100 instead of the 200. And that moment of her finishing that 100-mile distance was just, it was amazing. You know, I try to think of other women that like Wendy shear she’s in. She and her husband, Jason do ordinary ethics now, which are bike races and community events down in Mississippi. And I think that that’s probably something that I’ve inspired. But, you know, it’s hard to say, that’s just it’s not necessarily why I do it. So I guess I don’t really look for that. If that makes sense.

Rod Judd  21:54

Those understand. You’re involved with a group of women who ride the world. Mm-hmm. Would you talk a little about that group’s mission, particularly the social aspects of your work there? Tell us a little bit about it.

Kristi Mohn  22:07

Women, right, the world was born out of 200 women 200 miles. And that campaign was launched in 2016. To try to get 20% women participation at our 200-mile distance event is that event grew. And we move through things with that. I understood that we weren’t, what I was really trying to accomplish was to get more women at the start line. And although we had been focused on the 200-mile distance, I wanted it to be focused on every distance because it’s not, you know, 200 miles is a significant amount and it requires quite a bit of training. So I was really looking forward to trying to get women on the bike at the start line to the 25 of the 50 of the 100 of the 200 and trying to make a space where they felt welcome to come and ride any distance at the DK and as we were trying to kind of my girlfriends and I hear we’re trying to kind to come up with how that look, we each started committing to how many miles we were going to ride that year and help hold each other accountable. And what came out of it was that when we added up our miles, we figured out we were going to collectively ride around the world. And that’s where kind of the women ride the world came from, and the incentive there and then the motivation there is to just simply get more women on bikes, give them a space to find support. Some of the initiatives that we’re going to be launching out of this will be including some toolkits for ambassadors toolkits for events, toolkits for a bike shop, really trying to make sure we’re giving women the community support that they need to decide to try riding gravel.

Chad Pickard  23:43

As a retailer, I filled out my very first America’s Best Bike Shop application over five years ago. And to be honest, the first time I was a little anxious, I felt the result of the process would either be the seal of approval or the seal of disapproval for my bike stars. It was shortly after they handed The awards that I realized, this is an excellent opportunity to work with staff on our messaging and customer experiences in our stores. ABBS kind of became the coach, we used to find holes in our sales process or staff training. Where else are you going to get critical feedback like that?

24:15

Go to nbda.com for more details and to sign up for America’s Best Bike Shop program.

Rod Judd  24:27

Can you talk a little more about those toolkits, you know, and how would retailers connect and what does that mean for the retailer or the community organizer?

Kristi Mohn  24:35

Sure, and those are all things that are in the works. But the goal here is that you know, we hear a lot of times that bike shops can be intimidating. So we want to try to partner with bike shops and find bike shops that want to be doing things that will make a woman purchaser feel more comfortable, feel welcome to some specific clinic and rides focused on them and just really kind of giving them the space to grow into Cycling where they’re not intimidated.

Rod Judd  25:02

Very good. What does success look like for you in terms of women’s participation in the United States? You mentioned, you know, attending running events where the proportions were much more balanced of mental women. What do you think we need to take it? And how do we get there?

Kristi Mohn  25:18

Well, you know, I think continuing, the one big thing I think I always hear is like, we just have to invite women to participate, you know, ask them. So I think obviously, that’s key is to events and bike shops and organizations and events to just continuing to ask women to participate. You know, what does success look like? Obviously, you know, 50% female 50% male is probably what true success looks like. Realistically, you know, what I hoped for at the 30 Kansas start lines is more shooting at a collective like 35% across all of our distances. We see interesting numbers in our 25-mile distance, it’s actually over 50%. It’s like 55 57% female participation. So I think it’s just a matter of, you know, continuing to make sure we give them to give women, those avenues to be successful and the avenues to have access is the big part of it and feel welcome.

Rod Judd  26:11

Speaking to decision-makers and leaders within our industry and the health and wellness industry, if you could have the floor and ask them to do something to get involved, what would you ask them to do?

Kristi Mohn  26:26

I think anything that I would ask anyone to do would have to make sense of where they are and what they’re doing. It has to be something that that is I hate the word authentic, but you know, authentic, organic, and what they’re doing. It has to make sense. It can’t be forced, it has to feel, you know, natural. And I think you know, continually looking in your own communities for women leaders, and empowering them is important. You know, we did that with big sugar when we launched big sugar down in Bentonville, Arkansas bringing on Gaby Adams is one of our event directors. It was a matter of empowering and the concept is, you know if she can see it, she can be it. Just making sure women have that space and have the opportunity to be leaders is super important.

Rod Judd  27:12

Yes, I’m glad you brought up the sugar. Do you see a younger writer attending that event? So I guess the back of that question is how do we reach younger writers and younger women in particular?

Kristi Mohn  27:26

Well, I think it all comes down to the same things that we’ve been saying. You know, obviously, Gabby’s, although we share a birthday, we’re many years apart. Bringing up young leaders and young writers, it’s just the same thing. Giving them the space giving them the floor, giving them the power to be leaders as we move things forward is super important.

Rod Judd  27:45

What do you think the barriers are specific to women writing in the United States right now?

Kristi Mohn  27:52

You know, cycling isn’t a cheap sport. So obviously, I think there’s always a financial part of it. Women tend to Although they tend to be the biggest decision-makers in the families, as far as finances go, they also are less likely to spend money on themselves. So there’s some training thereof like, you know, you’re worth it and your health is worth it. I think, again, it comes down to support and access, I think we’re doing a better job of it. Especially I think the cycling industry is doing a much better job continually of making sure that space and that seat at the table is available. I think we just have to keep doing all of those things and keep recognizing that it’s not, you know, it’s not equitable yet. But it’s, it’s way better than it was even you know, three years ago, I think.

Rod Judd  28:38

Excellent. So for the next five years, say, what are your personal goals for expanding particularly women, right, the world what’s next, you mentioned that the kids would be available, what is your grand ambition? You know,

Kristi Mohn  28:53

personally, like I just want to continue to empower the next round of leaders. Yeah, I’m not old, but I also I think you know what you said about getting younger people on bikes. And I think that’s important. And I think, you know, the next generation is going to come to the table with different ideas. And they need to be heard, and they need to have the space to do that. So, you know, I want to see, I just want to see that next group of ambassadors grow and be successful and support them, even if we disagree. You know, I think that’s another thing. Some feedback I’d gotten. There was a comment about competition versus camaraderie. And, you know, I think I do, I’m not one of those people that believe you can have both. So I think that I want to see women, right the world grows more leaders as we move forward. I’m also a big believer. I mean, obviously I’ve been championed as someone about women on bikes, but what really what it boils down to is the community piece for me, and I really want to see, I want to see local bike shops, I want to see local bike dealers understand how important their role is in their community. And hopefully, give them some ways to be successful if they’re falling short because I think, you know, obviously, the online stuff is out there. But you can’t build a community online. It’s just doesn’t work. Like I mean one where you’re going out and you know, going for a ride together and then having beers afterward or having coffee or having pizza, or whatever it is. And I want to see, I want to make sure those local bike shops are finding success moving forward.

Rod Judd  30:22

You’re obviously a marketing expert yourself, what are some of the inspirations that you get from perhaps other industries or things that you see day to day that can help us with community building in the bike space?

Kristi Mohn  30:37

realtor, also, and I think a lot of it comes, you know, comes from that, I think, you know, I’m so entrenched between those two communities. And the other one would potentially be music and just looking at how, you know, music can bring people together. Obviously, houses are definitely community-related. I think they all just kind of make sense to me is looking at those things. First, And I definitely am cross-referencing things all the time just in general, if I see something, how can I use that to make dirty Kansa better or, you know, make sugar better? Whatever it is. I just kind of glean stuff from things around me. Very good.

Rod Judd  31:15

All right, before I throw up some final comments, do you have any new events planned? Do you have anything new programs that we can look forward to in the coming year or two

Kristi Mohn  31:26

new events for me personally, or professionally?

Rod Judd  31:30

I’ve seen new iterations of a new big sugar or new dirty Kansa. Or perhaps,

Kristi Mohn  31:34

you know, we, I think we’re always looking at potential ideas for growth opportunities, it’d be silly to not continuously be kind of keeping our eyes open and our fingers on the pulse for things in need, and holes, so to speak, that where we could fill a gap. So those things are always in play. You know, personally, I think I’m hoping to get to some events I haven’t been to just to check those out. haven’t been too rooted, Vermont, which I’m going out to this year. And I’m really looking forward to that. I’m participating in Lead Boat. So I’m looking forward to that challenge and just trying to figure out other ways to continue challenging myself on the bike is important. It provides me inspiration coming back home, for sure.

Rod Judd  32:19

Excellent. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Christy? Anything that we haven’t addressed that you’d like to speak to?

Kristi Mohn  32:26

You know, I think I know, as I said earlier that, that I definitely have been identified as a leader in this getting more women on bikes and I’m, I’m stoked about that. But it’s not just limited to women. I want to see people get out on bikes and try gravel and try dirt and try, you know, even mountain biking. I think that there’s a lot to be learned out there. And I think it’s a super great place to find and build new relationships and find something out new about yourself. And so, you know, as much as I’m stoked on getting more women on bikes, I challenge those women to get other people in their families on bikes, too. I think it’s a really great avenue to explore and learn something new.

Rod Judd  33:06

Excellent. Well, thank you, Christy Christy mon. You’re an amazing ambassador for what we’re doing. I thank you for your time today and good luck with the events this year.

Kristi Mohn  33:15

Thank you. Hope to see you at some of them.

Rod Judd  33:18

Absolutely. 

Kristi Mohn  33:19

Awesome.

Rod Judd  33:20

Bye Now

Kristi Mohn  33:22

Okay, thanks. Bye. 

Rod Judd  33:23

This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

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The post Dirty Kanza and the Gravel Cycling Explosion appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Expanding Your Business and Navigating Your Changing Role:  Ian Christie was a teenager when he cleaned bathrooms and did basic bike builds in a bike shop in exchange for parts. He eventually worked his way to a paying gig on the sales floor and realized this was the career path for him. He acquired Summit Bicycles when it had two locations in the Bay Area, and he has expanded it to five, with a staff of 45-60 full-time-equivalent staff members across the company.

In this episode of Bicycle Retail Radio, Ian talks about the challenges of expanding your business and managing your shifting role as an owner when your business grows. You will hear Ian’s thoughts on how good bike shops (even your competitors) are good for the industry as a whole, and the opportunities he sees for his company in the coming years.

Please enjoy listening to Expanding Your Business and Navigating Your Changing Role.

Support the show  (https://nbda.com/articles/donation-form-pg511.htm#!form/Donate)

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Episode 22 – Ian Christie

Tue, 8/18 10:42AM • 41:35

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

stores, bike shops, bikes, bike, people, customers, years, industry, pretty, gravel, staff, sell, area, training, big, build, bathrooms, vendors, run, shop

SPEAKERS

Ian Christie, Rod Judd, Chad Pickard

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to Bicycle Retail Radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Chad Pickard  00:16

My name is Chad Pickard and I’m the president of Spoke-n-Sport Bikes in sunny Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I also serve on the NBDA board. Today I’m going to be talking with Ian Christie of Summit Bicycles, which is located in the much sunnier Bay Area of California. Good afternoon, Ian. How are you? 

Ian Christie  00:34

I’m good. Chad. How are you? 

Chad Pickard  00:35

Not as warm as you are? But yeah, well, the sun is out actually. Which is a huge, I guess blessing for us. makes a big difference when it’s cold out. So yeah, yeah. Sunny and getting warm.

Ian Christie  00:48

Yeah, good. Good for you.

Chad Pickard  00:50

Yeah, the temperature here is 30. And people are starting to think about bikes a couple of days ago was 20. Below that was the actual air temperature and believe it or not, we still see people Bike to Work in 20 below temps which is amazing. 

Ian Christie  01:03

That’s crazy In California and you’re such Fairweather riders once it dips below 60 We’re like, no. 

Chad Pickard  01:09

Yeah, yeah. I lived in Texas for a while. And it was the same temp was the cutoff. And I found myself getting out more in those temperatures because the single track was wide open. There was nobody there. And nobody could see me just crushing the single track. So it turned into a kind of an urban legend. But yeah, so I’m excited to talk with you today. We don’t have a real specific agenda. But I know just this last year, you’re a top 25 dealer with TREK. So congratulations on that. And you run five stores in the Bay Area. Are there 5 million people in the Bay Area? Or is it more than that? 

Ian Christie  01:48

Seven, 

Chad Pickard  01:49

seven.

Ian Christie  01:50

It really depends on like which communities you count or don’t count, but like the traditional burial communities, okay, comes to about 7 million

Chad Pickard  02:00

That is a lot of people. That’s a lot. 

Ian Christie  02:02

It’s not that. Yeah, like 45 miles each way pretty much can get you the whole Bay Area. So it’s not very big.

Chad Pickard  02:10

Okay, so there’s some, is there some geographical boundaries other than the ocean?

Ian Christie  02:16

Yeah, yeah. So the peninsula is definitely landlocked, and then the East Bay, you know that you could set a mountain and then once you get past, really like the first cities along the coast of the east part of the day, that’s really like the valley, you know, almost headed toward Sacramento. What are the areas that we don’t really traditionally count as the Bay Area like Oakland and Hayward, San Leandro, maybe even Walnut Creek, those areas, those are traditionally kind of referred to as the Bay Area? And then, of course, the North Bay, all the way up to San Rafael, Berkeley. And then I really cover like mid-peninsula down to the South Bay. And the South Bay is really like the traditional Silicon Valley. You know, San Jose, Santa Clara. Suddenly all better. 

Chad Pickard  03:01

Okay, well, cool. So, obviously there’s last week it was at a dealer event, there are hundreds and thousands of retailers in the US with, you know, bike stores that you see their names and print here and there, but you never get to know them. Could you just introduce yourself, like, where you came from and how you got into the bike business, and maybe just a little bit about Summit Bicycles?

Ian Christie  03:22

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Ian Summit Bicycles. I acquired the company nine years ago now and it was actually technically my first job. I grew up in Santa Cruz. My dad worked over the hill in San Jose. And my best friend’s dad owned a couple of bike shops, one of which was in Los Gatos and he let me work for bike parts and cash under the table. Through cleaning bathrooms and whatnot. So my dad would drop me off on his way to work at the bike shop and then pick me up on his way back. And I just went from like, you know, shop Grom cleaning things to You know, building basic bikes to help you out on the floor to become a salesperson to the manager. And then I became the general manager of the two stores at the time. And then I was at the point where I had to, I had to choose whether to try to purchase the businesses from the previous owner, or continue on with college. And I chose the bike shop route, my wife continued on to college, she went to Berkeley got a degree blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I bought the two stores time required. The ownership transition took about four years and we acquired our San Jose location right in the middle of it. So when the transition was over, we had three stores. And then we opened Santa Clara in 2014, and then Palo Alto, in 2017. And then we also moved to the location and remodel the location, all of a sudden, like a span of four years. So 

Chad Pickard  04:59

So Little bit of work there. 

Ian Christie  05:01

Yeah. Yeah, it was good. I always like doing that build out stuff. You know. I think my senior year high school I had six periods of the woodshop. Yeah. Yeah, I was like a TA for this person. And, like, I totally nailed it in. I still wonder how I pulled that off? Yeah. So I always like, you know, building the stores and designing them and, you know, doing the work myself and that sort of thing. So, yeah, that’s Summit Bicycles. big Trek dealer has actually been taught 25 for like, eight years now. Yeah. Yeah, that’s pretty much. 

Chad Pickard  05:43

Okay. And so five stores just to give listeners an idea of the volume or the actual staffing size. What’s your staff? Is it 40 – 50 people that you have?

Ian Christie  05:54

Yeah, it ranges. It’s right around 45 to 60 The full-time equivalent, I’d say is like, the range. Right now we’re starting to bump up. So, like the actual individuals, we’re probably into like the 65 to 80s. But we always just look at the SP number. So okay, sure. Full time.

Chad Pickard  06:15

So FTE full time equivalent for those listening. Okay, a lot of employees that’s so with, you know, California’s have some changes with pay and things like that is that I’ve talked to some people that look at it two different ways. They just say that’s a natural increase in wages over time because I think it’s by Is it 2023? minimum wage is $15 an hour?

Ian Christie  06:39

Yeah, all of our stores are already Okay, like so I believe that’s like the state mandate, but then each tourney has their own separate kind of plan. And so like we have stores that have different minimum wages than some of our other stores, okay, but we just apply the highest one to all of them. But yeah, that’s been a huge variable that we’ve had to kind of encounter and realize the last two years especially given like, I mean, the unemployment rate in California is pretty much zero, right? I mean, if you could write open a box with a box opener and you got a job, you know, so the pay is one factor, which, you know, it’s definitely possible last issue, but getting people is difficult. This the volume of applicants is rare. So our last big hire for like, you know, a management position actually came from Florida. So, 

Chad Pickard  07:33

Oh, wow. 

Ian Christie  07:34

Yeah.

Chad Pickard  07:36

Are you finding getting those applicants through? You’re probably putting an ad in a local paper, right?

Ian Christie  07:43

No, yeah. No. So we do like Craigslist. We do everything as we do. This. We do Facebook, we do our own market, like through our own channels. We do, indeed. Zip recruiter LinkedIn. And like we’ve done it all, and we’ve always gotten kind of varying degrees of success from different avenues specific to the position, which is interesting. I mean, it’s not rocket science, but like finding production mechanics on indeed is proving more difficult, but we’ve had more success with it on Facebook, you know, okay, and then vice versa for management positions. So

Chad Pickard  08:25

Your shop is good, like really good. You have the right bikes with the right gear and the right employees with the right training. But there’s that voice in the back of your head telling you, are you really that good? Why not prove it? Sign up for America’s best bike shop program with the NBDA. The NBDA is America’s Best Bike Shop program is designed to identify and reward bicycle stores in North America against the highest performance standards in the industry. Find out more @NBDA.com When hiring a higher level, you know, leadership positions, are you still using those same methods, or are you headhunting going out into other industries and looking for people there to bring them into your organization?

Ian Christie  09:16

So, to answer your question simply mainly, like through indeed, or zip recruiter, however, 99% of our management positions are filled by people who have worked with us for a good amount of time, like, all my managers I’ve ever hired, probably three, and I have a more recent one that we make it four that I’ve been an outside hire. It hasn’t come from within. We’ve had much more success with the ones that come from within and they stick around longer. I mean, we’re pretty lucky we don’t have a ton of turnover on our management positions. So we just did a man University and like everyone went around the room. It was just the managers I think the average length of years with us from a manager was like, seven or eight years. 

Chad Pickard  10:05

Oh, wow. Congratulations. You’re doing something, right.

Ian Christie  10:09

Yeah, for sure. Lucky. Lucky for sure. 

Chad Pickard  10:14

I mean, if you’re doing Mann group training, their leadership training is excellent. You know, if you’re using some of those tools, hopefully, that’s a result of those tools and your wisdom to implement those.

Ian Christie  10:25

Yeah, they’re the right people to give them a lot of freedom to be successful. And, you know, help assess their strengths and complement their weaknesses.

Chad Pickard  10:36

To shift gears a little bit. So you have a total five stores now and you’ve started with two and expanded and move some, what’s your metric you use for? To answer the question, you know, do we need to open another store? Are you moving into places where there are existing stores? Is it you’ve grown? Your staff has grown so much that you have excess staff and you need somewhere to put them? Or excess inventory? What’s kind of your flowchart for that?

Ian Christie  11:01

Yeah, the real motivation through expanding was just internal motivations to grow. And then the way we assessed kind of the barrier markets is really just by feel. I mean, there’s only so much data that I mean, like population data and tech companies in the area, so on and so forth. But if we made decisions just based on that, I think we wouldn’t be as successful as we have been. So we have kind of our model of a store, or historically, our model of a store, which is, you know, three to 5000 square feet and a certain amount of revenue that we think that that area can produce. And then, you know, from there, it’s just going off of, you know, the space and the lease and the negotiations and whether or not that is going to work out into, you know, the financial model of the store, but that’s a whole nother variable in California. Sure. You have no idea but that landlord thinks that what their space is worth right and If they’re going to come down to reality at any point, so, but I think, after doing, I mean, all of our stores really kind of fit that model, I’m really interested in the idea of like a 2000 square foot store much smaller stuff, which is, you know, maybe even smaller than 2000 square feet, and just lower overhead all the way around in being okay with the lower, you know, top-line revenue. So, there are real profitable models there that are interesting, especially when we have everything else done in the background in terms of marketing, like building, you know, HR, blah, blah, blah, like all that stuff can run in the background. Sure, we just kind of folder and another, you know, five employees or so

Chad Pickard  12:44

you’re serving more of a micro-community, maybe a residential that’s got, you know, six high rises in the people immediately surrounding it. Is that kind of the plan?

Ian Christie  12:54

Yeah, yeah. And honestly, just a simpler operation, right. Like, yeah, the stores, we have are pretty intricate, right? And they sell really, really expensive high-end bikes, which, you know, we need certain people to sell, right. Whereas if it’s a more kind of hybrid community store, it’s a much I think those pieces are way more interchangeable in terms of staff, right? Like, it’s a lot easier just to kind of bring them through our training, and maintain them up to date on, you know, up to the $3,000 bikes, and they’re gonna be off and running. And that community, but, you know, we haven’t done anything like that yet. That’s like, almost the exact opposite of what our model is, which is whenever I think of like, okay, Just mind your business, you know, like, if do it, you know? Yeah, you know, don’t make it complicated. So, yeah, maybe it’s the next one. We’ll see. 

Chad Pickard  13:50

Okay, well, I hope to hear about it when it does happen. I hope it worked out. Well. I like the idea of the smaller neighborhood. Bike store. That’s got to be a fairly probably fairly dense area to make it work. So as you’ve expanded what’s become easier for you, was there a while you kind of started with two stores? Was it a race to open a third? Because two is crazy or was it just like you said it was just kind of a natural, you know, you want it to grow? Has anything become easier as you grow?

Ian Christie  14:22

Yeah, definitely. And I’m not sure if it’s easier because we grew or if it’s just easier because we just got better at the things we sucked at. It’s changed, I would definitely say like, things are different, like my role in the company is dramatically different. You know, compared to when we had two or three stories, you know, when we went to our fourth or fifth, so when we went to three, we weren’t planning to go to three, a store kind of came to us who took that opportunity. So that was an acquisition, which was a great acquisition. The interesting thing is like When you have two stores, you could kind of be the guy in each one, right? Like, you could be the main sales producer, you know, and work six days a week and have, you know, go-between at least ours are pretty close geographically. So I could bounce between them, you know, within 15 minutes sitter issues or find new paying customers coming in or whatever, but as I said, you go to three, you’re almost forced to have like to add a layer of management between you and you know, the support staff, per se, right. So like, three stores, we really kind of looked at, like a sales manager, a service manager, and then they reported to me and then I did you know, whatever site buying marketing or what have you, and then when we added the fourth, that one, I mean, aside from building it out, physically, like myself, it really kind of assimilated into The rest of them pretty easily. And that’s what it was kind of like, okay, like, this is different now, you know, like, it’s literally just kind of adding on Legos to the end of creation, that sort of thing. So, and then we did the same for Palo Alto for number five, and that we took that like, I think 70% of that stuff came from another store or other stores, I should say, if we piecemeal that, so,

Chad Pickard  16:29

okay, were there any I mean, so as you’re growing any unintended consequences that were like, Oh, we didn’t think about this, but this is even better, or is it just the ability to we’re getting good at this. We’re repeating it. Everything’s falling into place easier because we’ve been here before.

Ian Christie  16:46

Yeah, I can tell you the build-outs got a lot easier. We went from over like, you know, a 90 day build-out of like lease signed two doors open for business to be Don’t they’ll pop on 30 days, and it probably should have been like 40 days or something like that, like you’re there you know, the inventory was pretty sparse on the floor but like project management in terms of construction and that sort of thing, like we were so on like and we had like our plumber and electrician and our flooring guy like, right, they’re on top of each other one would finish on Thursday at noon, the other one would come in Thursday at one o’clock and it was just like, you know, it was a symphony

Chad Pickard  17:28

now I think you’re lying because it never happens that way right?

Ian Christie  17:31

Oh, it did. I flooring

Chad Pickard  17:34

somewhere plumbers on another job.

Ian Christie  17:38

Yeah, that’s what we learned. That was the thing, right? Like it’s a full-blown game. And like, you just got to be aware of that game and play it right back and get ahead of it right so like, and I literally remember purposely like scheduling everything a week earlier and just like it always did, right. Whether it was because of you know, getting signed off or this permanent or like He said flooring stuck in the back of the warehouse. It didn’t you know, one last box, it didn’t make it on the truck. You know, it all fell into place, like music. So that got easier. But no, I would say everything else is pretty, you know, pretty consistent. You know, if there’s anything that you got easier in terms of the business. It was like, upset by the fact that there are just more mouths to listen to. Right.

Chad Pickard  18:28

I have kids, I get the reference.

Ian Christie  18:30

Yeah. And that’s probably the biggest little reminder rules changes, like, I used to be able to be friends or you know, are like the perception of a friend. It’s like everyone right now. It’s like, I walked into the shop and I’m like this to meet you. And they’re like, I’ve worked here for four months. You’re like, Okay, great. I’m a jerk. Like a complete jerk. I wish that wasn’t there. Like timing having close relationships with My employees. So 

Chad Pickard  18:58

Sure. So For the people listening to this, I mean, I’m a firm believer that, you know, in the same way, that we’ve got hundreds and hundreds of banks and coffee shops, I mean, I think we really do need more successful bike stores and not just opening up a store on a whim, but a plan to open a store and to, you know, to make sure all the right things are in place so that the result is a success. Well, what are some of the roadblocks that those looking to expand should look out for like, Is there one or two huge things that often get overlooked when expanding? Maybe from your own experience or something you learned from somebody else? That maybe was a mentor of yours or? Or you’d talk to about it?

Ian Christie  19:39

Yeah, I, and not just bike shops, a lot of businesses. I’m always kind of curious if they run the numbers or not before they open. Do you know what I mean? Like, I’m like, Did you really think you’re gonna sell 1000 hotdogs a day or something? Do you know what I mean? Like, whatever the business is, I’m like,

Chad Pickard  19:56

let’s not talk about the store. I bought. Yeah, I bought it. So I can talk for hours about that. Yeah, that’s a valid question.

Ian Christie  20:05

Yeah. And so just run the numbers. I mean, like on the build-out on the first three months in the first 12 months, but you think it’s gonna be doing you have enough runway to cover it? If you don’t? What’s your contingency? Like? All that stuff? Right? Because right, it takes time to turn a new store. profitable, right? Or even break even, you know, we’ve been fortunate that they’ve, they’ve happened quicker than we’ve budgeted. That’s because we ran the numbers constantly and massage them constantly and you know, we’re overly conservative in which makes you approach everything the right way. You know, the build-out how much you’re going to spend and the least, which you’re going to live with for X amount of years. So yeah, that just runs the numbers. That’s my biggest recommendation. For sure.

Chad Pickard  20:54

are you guys doing that in the house or using an accountant to help Oh, yeah, that no, no in the house Yeah. So in your build-outs, is there one thing that you forgot in the first build-out? That’s the ongoing joke for continual build-outs. You know,

Ian Christie  21:14

I would ask my staff, I would say the one thing I probably would do differently on the build is not to make such nice bathrooms. I don’t know why, but I made like, kinda like marble tile in the bathrooms and that like, and I did it all too. And I’m like, why did I do that? They’re beautiful. They look great. Yeah, we’re big believers in clean bathrooms for customers, but you don’t need to spend you know, do you have

Chad Pickard  21:41

to have like an espresso machine in your bathrooms to

Ian Christie  21:44

No, no, I didn’t go that far.

Chad Pickard  21:48

Yeah, I tell you what, I love a nice bathroom. And sometimes even. I mean that we joke about it, but there’s something nice to a nice bathroom. I mean, I think it’s important. So I’m gonna say good for you for putting a little extra into your bathrooms and hopefully, your customers appreciate it. And your staff. 

Ian Christie  22:05

Yeah, no we’ve gotten is. So, I mean, there are much worse things you can do an adult than, you know, put a little extra time into the bathroom. So

Chad Pickard  22:17

yeah, okay. So obviously, you know, you’ve probably read the news about our industry, it’s the national numbers are, we’re selling, you know about the same number of bikes or less or a little bit more depends on who you ask retail dollars are going up. What does our industry didn’t need to do? We’ve kind of stagnated a bit. There’s been, in some regions, there’s a lot of bike stores closing, the national numbers show that there’s quite a few opening, but currently more closing than opening, but not by a huge percentage. What do you see that we can do as an industry to change those numbers to create more growth, more cyclists, more people coming into our bike stores

Ian Christie  22:56

is a question of the decade right or last decade. I don’t know, to be honest, like, I always wonder like, how many of those bike shops that close our shitty bike shops, because I mean, let’s be honest, like, you know, a bad bike shop closing is good for everyone. And a good bike shop can do wonders for other bike shops. I remember when my largest competitor moved right into town right next to me. It was like, Okay, are we gonna die? Or are we going to improve and like, that store has gone down? Any year since they moved in, they’ve only gone up. So it’s interesting because bike shops really represent the bike industry to the end consumer. It’s, it’s the most important part of the whole chain. Right. And I think it’s going to be a myriad of running our businesses better, right? Being tougher on our vendors and being kinder to our customers. Right? And which I think overall, we’ve gotten a lot better at like, in terms of bicycle shops actually providing some sense of customer service. Compared to 20 years ago. I feel like it’s night and day. Do you know what I mean? And it’s good to see the standards that were judged by our customers now. Yeah, because a lot of times we meet them, you know, and that was not the case, right? Like bike shops were super intimidating, non-welcoming stores were people were met with attitude. That’s why the previous owner started summit, right. He wanted to get into road riding, there’s a jerk out there. He’s started a bike shop. So yeah, it’s a mix. The bikes are going to help that your bikes are interesting because it’s obviously only going to raise the average, like the price of the industry. But it could also help us sell more bikes period, right. Which isn’t the truth. A trend that we would expect, right? E-bikes are getting more people, you know, into our bike shops that we typically don’t see. Which is crazy, right? So, five years will be interesting to see bikes are gonna are going to do all sorts of crazy things to our numbers.

Chad Pickard  25:17

How are the bike sales affected your stores over the last year, two years or you’re seeing growth in your area?

Ian Christie  25:24

Oh, yeah, definitely was a few years back. I don’t know, I forget how long ago but the E-bikes were always kind of like there and we kind of did them and you know, we didn’t really have like, a solid stocking plan for e-bikes. And then there was one year where they sold as much as kids bikes. He’s obviously you know, like, one 10th of the units. But yeah, right. That was like the year where it kind of clicked for all of us like, Okay, this is, this is finally a category and let’s treat it as such. And you know, you hear the numbers. It’s crazy. Since Some shops are seeing, you know, like 300% growth in effects and they’re already doing e-bikes a decent amount. So it’s exciting to see. It’s funny, we do this for merchandising thing every year, twice a year. And this year when we did it, we were like to put all the bikes together still, or do we put each specific type of E-bike with its respective category? You know, like, the road with road bikes and mountain bikes and mountains and so on. You know, it was like there’s so many now and they’re in every category, and it’s so saturated. And when you start to talk about it with the customer, like do you treat it as just e-bikes Are you treated as an option within the mountain bike line or the road line?

Chad Pickard  26:48

Give your customers a reason to come back to your store. Sell them the NBDA is Ride it Daily extended service plan. The only service plan that pays you your shop rate for extended service and worn He claims, finds out more about rides @NBDA.com. Are you seeing the customer that’s buying an E-bike? Is it a different customer? Is it someone that is, you know, they were an avid cyclist? And now they’re just that’s the progression of their cycling? Or are you seeing a new customer come into your store that has maybe different shopping habits that are unfamiliar with the way the bike industry sort of works? And they’re just a different customer? Are you seeing any of that?

Ian Christie  27:34

Oh yeah, you both Yeah, I mean, we sold, you know, performance mountain bikes or a mountain bikes, and he rode bikes to like, our road club, you know, avid cyclists that are super in shape and on Strava with tail ends and all that stuff. And then we see this, you know, a couple over 60 we just bought an RV and want to go across the country, you know, so yeah, it’s everyone.

Chad Pickard  27:59

So with that, you know, the couple that has the RV, you know, maybe new to cycling. Are there any specifics? That’s any differences in the way they shop as opposed to the cyclist?

Ian Christie  28:12

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Okay, they don’t care what the rear derailleur, you know, they’re like what rear derailleur? You know, they’re like, you know, how’s the saddle? Am I comfortable? Is this gonna get a flax file? This is it. You know, those are the things, right? Which, you know, we’re somewhat used to, like we sell, you know, casual. As you know, some people would say, as I’m putting your quotes up, you can see normal bikes. Right? And those are typically the same, the same set of questions or concerns, right? How’s this look? sort of thing?

Chad Pickard  28:44

Sure. Any other categories that you’re seeing any growth in is gravel, something that’s growing gravel, electric gravel, is that thing yet out in California?

Ian Christie  28:54

We haven’t seen any electric gravel certainly growing but I kind of just categorize that as you know. roadies that want to take mountain biking. So, like, for me, that’s just the road market diversify within a 700 seat wheel more or less. Because the road market is as declined so much compared to where it was, like five years ago now just definitely helped. Sure there was a year in the middle of November, we actually saw a pretty good increase. It was almost all attributed to disk. So but when you add in gravel for us at least it’s pretty flat, maybe a little up last year. But yeah, gravel, sun, gravel has, if anything, it’s kind of brought out these events and rides that are way more kind of social and fun and less racy trick, which I think is overall good, at least in our area. Like there’s an event where it’s like, there are bands and they camp and the family goes out and there’s a thing for kids and then there’s like it’s a thrill ride. There’s a big gravel ride, you know, at the end of it or something like that. So that’s really cool. I see. Those are nice. Yeah, a little bit slower speeds a little more inclusive.

Chad Pickard  30:11

Yeah, I hope events like the social events I hope to continue to grow in all markets.

Ian Christie  30:17

Yeah, we need like the glitter run equivalent for …the awesome

Chad Pickard  30:22

I let’s stay away from the glitter, maybe something a little. So with a density of over 7 million, do you have a lot of events in your area? Is it? Do you find customers trying to decide Oh, do I go do this gravel ride or this charity ride? Or is it further than not that many events?

Ian Christie  30:43

When the season starts, there’s an event every weekend, if not two or three, okay. cycling events. So that’s not even counting, like running or you know, music in the park, you know, any of that other stuff? calls people and there’s always stuff, but you know, it’s good overall. It’s good. You know, there’s enough people to satisfy. Yeah.

Chad Pickard  31:04

So the next five years, what’s something that you’re really curious about in our industry? You know, maybe it’s a product, maybe it’s a, you know, a different, maybe it’s online sales, maybe it’s creating an Instagram account. So you can actually sell through Instagram, what are some of the things that you’re curious about in the next five years?

Ian Christie  31:22

But no online business? Interesting, I find their particular roadblocks given that we are approaching it from a brick and mortar store, like part of what makes us you know, brick and mortar with a good value proposition to our customers is the fact that we have brands that don’t, that largely don’t sell online. Right. But that also makes it impossible for me to sell them. Right. So it’s kind of catch 22. So that’s interesting. I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to crack that in that. The training is a big one that I tend to come back to it seems like every two years were just trying to improve our training and kind of the saturation of the knowledge that we learned from our consultants and the rest of the industry. And then getting that to our managers and then allowing or teaching our managers how to get it from them to their staff effectively. We did our own like online training module, I think two or three years ago now on Miyagi. And I did a horrible job of like me with an iPhone. No, this horrible beard in the bathroom sort of thing. So like, this time, like, I need to upgrade that and then upgrade the content. That’s really good. Doing like product reviews. In YouTube stuff is pretty interesting. We just kind of tinkered with that we threw Dart against the wall, and that actually, turns out to be pretty successful by view count. Like it actually hasn’t amounted to any money.

Chad Pickard  32:52

You know, we haven’t even seen like an uptick in sales on a tire that you reviewed or

Ian Christie  32:58

No, I mean, not a to validate, you know, five grand and camera stuff, so it’s fun. So it’s good for our brand. Like, I think it effectively communicates what we’re about what we’re trying to do. And it’s also good for the staff to do what they like. So

Chad Pickard  33:15

yeah, probably creates a little bit of a, or gives your staff a little bit of authority over some of those products. If your customer sees Oh, Ian’s talking about this tire, he obviously knows about tires. I’m going to go there and buy my tires. Yeah, for sure.

Ian Christie  33:30

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, we were shut like we did one for a bike, some Santa Cruz, like, like our first real-time. And we’re like, what’s, you know, random goal, what’s a high amount of years and it was like, 1000. We had no idea. Roughly 30,000 views or something like that, right? We have, like, yeah, we’re just jokes we like, we don’t think anyone wants to listen to it. Like that. Apparently, we’re entertaining enough to watch 30,000 times. So We should put this on YouTube. Yeah.

Chad Pickard  34:07

So training is one of the topics that interest you. Do you have a metric for how much your staff needs to be trained in a week as a full-time equivalent train per week or per month or year?

Ian Christie  34:20

We don’t have those metrics yet. We are those goals in place. Rather, we do have, like we use track University and they all have to be guides and that sort of thing we checked in on that monthly, they’ll have to be 100% on our Miyagi we check in on that monthly so it’s more staying current as we just get just to the main new thing, which I mentioned before. And we kind of got into this idea of doing 10-minute training things on specific sales tactics every day, right? Just so we’re kind of honing our skills on the sales process. You know, constantly and 10 minute bites are pretty easy to pull off. So, you know, even in the season between the manager and a sales guy, so that’s going to be kind of the new standard operating procedure we put in place for practicing or training whatever verb you want to use.

Chad Pickard  35:17

Okay? similar to like a stand-up meeting in the morning, just get everybody on the same page and hopefully, cover the same topic enough that you hit the people that aren’t there every day and yeah, 

Ian Christie  35:28

yeah, exactly.

Chad Pickard  35:30

So you’ve been in the industry, how many years now? 15 – 16.

Ian Christie  35:35

Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Chad Pickard  35:38

A lot of years. How do you recharge? I mean, do you ever just like oh my gosh, I got to go into a bike store again, and I gotta tell someone why they got to pinch flat. What keeps you recharge what you mean? Your role obviously has changed a little bit from you were cleaning bathrooms at one time to now you’ve got five stores. And so just to change a job, or position and responsibilities, probably key Going a little bit, but what do you do to recharge? Is it books on tape? Is it speaker’s mentors? Is it a spa day? Or quarantine yourself when you’re sick?

Ian Christie  36:10

Yeah, my routine helps me kind of stick with a rhythm that is pretty sustainable. I mean, I have plenty of I’ll call them vacations, but uh, you know, vacations with kids or vacation trips.

Chad Pickard  36:27

And trade shows aren’t vacations either. I think I need to add that on there as well.

Ian Christie  36:31

No, they’re not. Yeah, I get away enough in my own personal life works fine, but my routine is pretty crucial to, you know, not going crazy every day. But honestly, like, I have a great staff. Like, there’s not many times where I like dread opening my inbox or dread going into a store. I’m pretty fortunate that way. I mean, there’s the stuff that always comes up, obviously, but yeah, I’m pretty lucky my routine. I work out a lot A cup of five workout for 90 minutes, come home. And everyone’s typically asleep when I get home, which is awesome. And then I journal and then I get the girls ready for school, drop them off, and then head to work. And then at night, I go back to the gym with the kids to give mom a break. And then we finish up the night. Yeah, that’s a pretty stable routine. 

Chad Pickard  37:24

You get some ride time in there as well.

Ian Christie  37:27

Yeah, yeah. It’s sporadic. Like it’ll just be randomly a buddy will have a Friday off. Let’s go, you know, sort of thing I like if I have to meet with a vendor that’s on a bike, you know, sort of thing. So yeah. It’s a lot harder to pull out, you know, a three-hour permission slip stage and my kid’s slides but I go every now and then

Chad Pickard  37:53

throw them in the car.

Ian Christie  37:58

Yeah.

Chad Pickard  38:00

time and money weren’t an issue. What would you do to get more people on bikes in the Bay Area? Besides giving them bikes? Or maybe that’s the answer?

Ian Christie  38:10

No. And so there’s this energy board. I forget the name of the company, but there’s some energy organization that I just talked to last week that’s trying to put together a rebate program for e-bikes. Okay, and I see Colorado did something like this a couple of years ago. And it sold a lot of like so that I would petition heavily whoever’s in charge to do that would help a bunch. The time it is, you know, do we in our vendors have enough inventory? Is that you know, chips that weigh that heavily. So, which is a valid

Chad Pickard  38:47

question with Yeah, you know, the process of having tariffs and having to pay those tariffs before bringing inventory in means that a lot of our vendors are bringing in less inventory at a time and then also, you have The Coronavirus preventing, or some facilities just stopping production. Correct. Your season is different than mine because I’m in the cold north and you’re on the coast. Have you seen that as a challenge yet? In the last 90 days, six months?

Ian Christie  39:16

Not yet, but we’re aware of it. I mean, we, like we definitely, we’ve been to these before in terms of when our vendors have, you know, under forecasted inventory. And so there’s kind of a game or, you know, operating procedure that we have to go through, which is fine. It just takes more management in work to kind of stay on top of, but it has the potential to be that this year, which honestly is good, right, like, you know, dramatic swings taken out of it. Like we would prefer to sell everything at full pop. And, you know, tell people No, sorry, like, we can’t give you $100 off a 40 $500 bike. Like I have two people behind you that want it you know, sir thing. So I remember when the methadone changeover from the 50 to 100. And like we actually marked up by like, that was the shortage that we were going through packing like we marked up the 5.2, madone $250. It seems crazy that we would do that. But like that was the demand back then. Right. So, yeah,

Chad Pickard  40:22

it will be interesting how that plays out over the next six months. I feel we’ve our industry has always had a lot of inventory. Maybe not necessarily the written query. But if vendor a doesn’t have it, vendor B probably does or unacceptable. Yeah. replacement. Anything that you want me to ask you that I haven’t asked, you

Ian Christie  40:42

NO

Chad Pickard  40:44

Well, I think I mean, I’ve got a ton more questions but we’re just under an hour. And I want to thank you for your time. And I wish you the success in whether you grow or not grow more stores or add that smaller 2000 1500 square foot store. I think that’d be. I like the direction of some of the shops in our industry that are doing that. Some have already had some success. So I wish you the best with that. Yeah.

Ian Christie  41:09

Thanks, Chad.

Rod Judd  41:10

 Appreciate it. This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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Chad Pickard
Owner, Spoke-n-Sport – South Dakota (2 locations)

In 6th grade, Chad took apart and rebuilt his first coaster brake hub.  It was that curiosity that kept him working in bike service shops from the age of 14 till buying Spoke-N-Sport in 2001.  Mountain bikes and Hans Rey ignited his passion for technical trail riding a few years later.  Chad’s work experience is almost 100% bike stores but he is always looking to other industries to improve the customer experience in his two stores.  Chad serves on the bike committee in Sioux Falls and has played an active role in defending the rights of cyclists at the state level including the most recent 3-foot / 6-foot passing law.

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

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The post Expanding Your Business and Navigating Your Changing Role appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Tips for Strengthening the Dealer/Vendor Relationship: It’s no secret that the relationship between dealers and vendors can be filled with tension. A strong relationship, however, can give shops a competitive edge as vendors go the extra mile to help you to keep your customers happy. From product advice to supply chain insights, your vendors are an essential part of your success.

In this episode of Bicycle Retail Radio, James Ayres, Domestic Sales Manager at Haro Bicycles, and Phil Cohen, NBDA board member and owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles, throw open the doors on their thriving dealer/vendor relationship so that you, too, can enjoy the benefits of a match made in heaven.

Please enjoy listening to Tips for Strengthening the Dealer/Vendor Relationship.

Support the show (https://nbda.com/articles/donation-form-pg511.htm#!form/Donate)

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Episode 23 – Phil & Haro COMPLETED

Tue, 8/18 10:42AM • 48:33

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

retailers, customer, bikes, business, bicycle, manufacturer, dealer, Haro, relationships, year, conversations, vendors, brand, talk, chain reaction, store, buy, expectation, people, sales

SPEAKERS

Rod Judd, Chad Pickard, Phil Cohen, James Ayres

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Phil Cohen  00:16

Hello, this is Phil Cohen, one of the board members of the National bicycle dealer Association. I want to welcome you to today’s podcast that is a part of bicycle retail radio, which is a podcast of the National Bicycle Dealer Association. If you’re not a member, please join. We appreciate that our support and our goal is to continue to bring bicycle dealers to excellence. And today, what we want to do is we want to talk about relationships between bicycle retailers and their vendors. They can be strained and I think after we finish today, maybe we’ll all have some ideas on things we want to do. To improve those relationships, before I get started, I want to kind of paint a picture. If you’re driving, please don’t do this. But if you’re not driving, what I want you to do, is I want you to close your eyes. Okay? Now, I want you to imagine, imagine your best customers, the customers that love your shop, the customers that just get you and they get what you do and they get what you’re about. And they would drive 30 miles past 10 other shops to come see you. The customers that we absolutely when we see them pull up, we love that they’re coming to our stores, and we just love everything about them. We can’t get enough. Okay, now what I want you to do is I want you to go the other end of the spectrum. I want you to think about the customers that when they pull up, everybody in the shop has a sigh and they just go Oh no, not this guy. Again, the customers that you wish would find your competitors. The ones you’ve suggested that they find your competitor. And for some reason, they just keep coming back. They, they take up a lot of your time. They don’t spend a lot of money. They are always complaining. We all have those customers. We all have both types of customers. Now what I want you to do, as I want you to open your eyes, I want you to think about it. I want you to think about what type of customer Are you because, in the bicycle business, the retailers are the customers for the vendors. And a lot of times I think that’s lost. And I think there’s a way to be a good customer. But I don’t want us to lose sight as retailers that we are the customers. And if I didn’t introduce myself, my name is Phil Cohen. I am a bicycle shop owner. I have a shop here in Evans, Georgia, a suburb of Augusta, Georgia. And we’ve been here for this starting our 30th year Now, what we do here is we try to have great relationships with our customers and our vendors. And speaking of vendors, I’ve got one of my best vendors, one of the vendors that I believe, just get it, and I’m thrilled with this company. And I’m thrilled with this fellow I’m about to introduce and his name is James Ayres. Now James doesn’t get a big head, but I believe that you as a sales Operations Manager for Haro, bicycles, I believe that we have a great relationship and I try to pattern all my relationships with my vendors after our relationship. And I guess that’s what I want to talk today about our relationship and about why it’s good what we can do to improve relationships in our industry, and what we have to do to make things work you know, we’re in the same boat, we may be indifferent ends. To the boat, but we want to keep sailing towards our Bright Futures together. So James, introduce yourself if I didn’t do a correct job and tell us about yourself and what your job is.

James Ayres  04:11

Wow, I don’t even know where to start. What kind of words. Thank you. Thank you. Well, as Phil said, my name is James Ayres on the Sales Operations Manager here at Haro bikes. starting my 13th year MRO came to the vendor side, a little bit of a weird route. I was previously on the publishing side, moved out to California in 1999, and was lucky enough to land a job that was then ride publishing doing ride BMX magazine, and for those of you who might remember it’s a title called BMX Business News. So, you know, seven or eight years there, came over to the Haro side got to see you know, in-depth how the business works and, you know, been here ever since, you know, and then as Phil said, I think we certainly share he talked about great customers and the ones that you like seeing come through your door and I think pleased to say that, you know, anytime we see chain reactions, number of, you know, pull up on any of our other IDs. You know, everybody kind of jokes like, Nope, I’m getting it. No, no, no, that’s my weight. So let’s talk to me. It’s a fun relationship. Okay. How did I do? Did I cover everything? Is that good?

Phil Cohen  05:14

Yeah, yeah, that was great. In fact, I think about how it started, you were actually traveling with one of the reps The first time I met you when you actually walked into the store that was probably I don’t know, at least 10 years ago. And I believe I think you’re right. That was our first meeting. And it was nice for somebody from the home office to come out and see a little Podunk store in the middle of at the time, just a suburb outside of Augusta, Georgia, and we’re just a single store location and how do we rate that we get somebody of importance like you to come to see us. But, but I think that that was the beginning of a relationship that turned into a friendship that turned into, you know what it is today, which is a strong friendship and mutual respect for each other and what we do and how we value each other. And that to me is just that’s what I search for and I yearn for in all my relationships. I was thinking about it, if you think about relationships, you know who in their work in any aspect of your life? Why would you want an adversarial relationship with anyone, you know, life’s tough enough to go on that or not this person or I got to deal with this person or, you know, we should try to search for happiness and enjoyment in our workday and our family life and everything like that. So I was just thinking, you know, a lot of times we depend on vendors and their relationships strained. And maybe the vendors depend on good customers that sometimes they wish they didn’t have to depend on. But, you know, we can fix all that we can make these relationships good and healthy and strong. And that’s kind of what I want to talk about today. I really think James that early owns when you told me, I think you may regret it now, but you gave me your phone number your car and you said, Hey, call me anytime you want. You’re like, oh man, that do that. But then I pick up on it. I’m one of those guys, I took you up on it, I called you. And I remember, our rep was telling us how we were doing. And I thought, Hey, we’re having a pretty good year. And I remember I used to call you and ask you how we were doing, probably to the point where you’re like, Oh, no, not this guy. But because we weren’t. But I really wanted to know I wanted to know where I stood because I’m just the one store location in a smaller market. And I really liked the idea that it was important that I was an important customer. And I think what you guys did you guys made me feel like an important customer. Even though when the biggest story even though I didn’t buy the most stuff. I felt valued as a customer and that went a long way in making these have a fond feeling towards your brand, as well as the people their horror

James Ayres  08:01

That’s awesome. Those were fun days, they are fun days. You know, I remember some of those conversations, you know, where you would call me up and say, Hey, you know, how am I doing? How am I tracking, you know, compared to last year, and it was done in such a great atmosphere to where we would have fun with it. And we would joke about it. And we would talk about, you know, maybe other competitors who were in that marketplace. And, you know, I would joke Well, you know, these guys, you know, these guys bought, you know, Kenmore mountain bikes, you know, do you have any floor space? You know, what can we do? You’d say something like 10 more bikes, I’ll give you an order for 20. You know, it was just that kind of back and forth, where it was never, like, I don’t think either one of us ever felt like anybody was trying to turn the screws on the other person. It was just super fun to have those conversations, you know, and to talk about things like year over year performance, and how are things trending and what are you seeing in your marketplace that, you know, maybe I’m not seeing on a national level, or maybe vice versa, what I’m seeing on the national level that you might not be seeing yet so I love those colors. Because it told me that you were engaged in your business with us. And then it gave me a chance to kind of, you know, have a little bit of fun with it. And I’ll tell you what if there’s one thing that I know about our conversations, we’ve not had a fun conversation. So I think that’s just a testament to our glowing personalities.

Phil Cohen  09:18

Thank you, right. It’s always fun, always fun. But I think early on, I remember, I think even one year I was thinking, you know, hey, how can we be one of your top dealers or what constitutes? So I even think one year you guys did some awards for some of your top dealers. And fortunately, we were able to get one of those awards. And I think maybe even genesis of that might have been some of our conversations. I don’t disagree. I can picture the award in my head. If I’m not mistaken. We gave it to you during Interbike. If I’m not mistaken, you did. You did give it to me during Interbike and I was very proud and I’m in my office right now and it’s sitting across the room and next to a couple of other special things, and it’s a special moment because it just shows, you know, our hard work along with your good service. That’s what we can do you know, and it’s, it’s pretty fun. Pretty fun. Agreed. The biggest thing I think that people struggle with, and I think that we got off on a really good start as we had a really good communication because I think a lot of times, vendors want to just shove as much inventory in, and I’m sure you know, there are lots of programs to help us sell-through. But I think a lot of times, the programs aren’t well thought out or they’re not thought out with the dealer in mind. And I don’t think sometimes the dealers have an understanding of what the manufacturers and vendors have to go through to get that product in place. And I know you took a lot of patience and a lot of time with me to explain to me, you know why it was Difficult to change this or change that or what the lead times were and why you’re out of bikes and what happened. And, you know, you forecast this and you forecast double and you sold triple. And then it made me not any less disappointed that I didn’t have a product to sell if you had a gap in inventory for two or three weeks, and I ran out too because we were doing really well. But why that happened in what you were doing about it. And I felt like a true partner in the business and I felt like I was kind of an insider like you were telling me things that maybe they’re not for public consumption, but there was nothing wrong with you explaining to me how you guys got in that bind and how you’re getting out of it, and how I fit into that. So I think communication is key. absolutely key. And if we as dealers don’t let you know what our needs are they In, how are you going to know? Then we have to understand what you guys go through to so we can be part of the solution to inventory is thinking about back when we first started back in 1991, we opened. And it was pretty much every model of every bike was sitting in a warehouse. And I’m sure that cash flows on, it’s healthy for the manufacturers because it seemed like they had a lot of inventory sitting around. You could just call up anytime you wanted and get a bike sent right away.

James Ayres  12:32

Those days are pretty much gone. I think. I think you’re right. And you know, just to circle back around on something that you touched on. One of the reasons why I like sharing some of that insider info with you was because you were receptive to hearing it. You know, when we talked about lead times and we talked about forecasting, and we talked about, you know, the sourcing parts and those things, you gave me a chance to explain why we were where we were, I think two Often, you know, retailers shall remain nameless, you know, it’s not uncommon for a manufacturer to hear, you know, something along the lines of insert brand name here. Oh, those guys are out of bikes again. They’re idiots. They’re morons. They don’t know what they’re doing, you know, they can’t forecast it. You know, in some of those conversations, I don’t even get the chance to explain why the supply chain broke down at what stage the supply chain broke down. That’s something that I always appreciated with our conversations was not only did you want that information, but you were also very receptive to hearing it. So anytime I’m able to explain why we got in the bind that we’re in that’s a welcome invitation to me if you know our company, PRESIDENT JOE Hawk, he has a saying, and that thing goes bad news can be good information. That’s always what I felt like, you know when we were having some of those supply chain issue conversations. Okay, so what I’m about to tell you is bad news, but it’s good information. And more importantly, I can tell you how we got here and maybe even more important than that, how we work our way around. I think it’s a total give and takes, there are things that I’m going to know about our business Tardos business, just being inside these four walls, that if I share that with you, that will make you a stronger retailer, whether that’s when inventory is coming in whether I see a sale price coming up on a certain model or overstocked on, things like that. So I feel like because you gave us an opportunity to explain why some of those hiccups were happening, that made me want to be more forthcoming isn’t the right word. But when I would see a potential sale opportunity coming up, you’re always the first guy that I reached for because like we talked about, it was a friendly environment. It was a friendly relationship. I was able to explain something, so therefore I felt like okay, I just had to give some bad news. Let me see if I can help with some good news.

Phil Cohen  14:46

Yeah, that was the case because it made me feel important. It made me feel valued, that you would share information like that with me. And it also, I felt like you guys are truly my partner and I want my partner to be successful. I want my partner to be healthy. I want my partner to be there for me. Because guess what, next week, next month next year, I need more bikes, I need you guys to be able to provide high-quality bikes in a timely manner. And so I want to know, Hey, what happened, why this happened. Plus, if you give me a heads up three or four weeks out before the troubles coming, or you give me some visibility, now I can hedge a little bit, I can bring a few more bikes in either from you or from another company, I can make a contingency so that I have products in the store to sell. And I’m not having a bad month because everybody ran out and I don’t have anything so and I have those relationships with other vendors too because I really try to cultivate them. And because of that, I think, you know, my business is better. I think I’m a better customer. You know, I used to joke with you. I said what makes a good customer something I think maybe I don’t know if he said If I said it, but we were talking to buy lots of stuff and pay for it on time, and I’m like, Oh man, I can do that, you know. And there were times when I couldn’t buy lots of stuff, and I struggled to pay for it on time. And that’s part of the process. Think of a business learning how to be a great business, which is what the NBA, we want to make all of our businesses great. I’ve won so much as an NBA member and joined groups like p two, to help make me a better customer. And I think the investment you guys and companies and you know, our industry makes in strengthening retailers, the better off we all are because he shipped me lots of stuff and I don’t pay for it. That doesn’t work out for either of us. You know, if we come up with programs that aren’t feasible, that didn’t work out for us, so that communication allows, I think sometimes for people in different markets, tailoring those programs. So it makes sense For the dealer, you know, we’re all different. I was thinking about some of our board members summer in Arizona, and they don’t do any business in the summer because it’s too hot. And then some of them are in South Dakota and they don’t do any business in the winter because it’s too cold. And you know, we’re here in an area that’s nice most of the year in our business, you know, drops off seasonally, but not as bad as other places. And, you know, we’re all different. We all have different needs. And I think when I can communicate my needs to the company, and you can work with me, and I get my bikes to want even the right amount, the right time, can turn I can pay for them. I mean, everybody’s happy. At least I thank you

James Ayres  17:41

very much. So and I know that’s not always an easy puzzle to put together. And I think that’s why, you know, those check-in conversations once every few weeks, at least once a month, are so key to both of us being healthy. Again, I can kind of share some things that I’m seeing within these four walls. You can share immediate needs while and future needs with me. And we kind of take it together as a team. I can’t think of a time where we haven’t been able to find some middle ground on just about anything. And I think this kind of circle back around to, you know what we were talking about earlier in the week. One of the things that I think is key for both sides, you have to be a good listener.

Phil Cohen  18:22

Oh, man, I’m glad you said that. Because I mean, think about it as retailers. And when I train my salespeople, I said, hey, what does that have you? God gave you one mouth and two ears, you know, you’re supposed to use them in that proportion and try to explain to them, Listen, listen, the customer will give you the information. You have to be able to know which questions to ask and then shut up and listen, they don’t want to know how awesome you are, what ride you did last week. You’re here to serve them. And that’s the point that I really want to drive home to the retailers. retailers. We are the customer the name outside my store doesn’t say hi back says chain reaction. Now I’m proud to be a hora dealer. But my brand is Chain Reaction, and I’m the customer. And I need to be treated as such, we always talk about another thing I think funny. You know how people say the customers are always right. Well, a lot of times the customers aren’t right. But the customers are always the ones that bring the money. And without the money, we can’t operate. So we have to serve our of our customers, and we have to give them value. So they’ll keep coming back and keep bringing the money. And sometimes I see vendors that forget who the customer is, I questioned that. And I’m like, wow, that’s not really that’s the tail wagging the dog. You know, it just, you know, I don’t know, do you? What do you think about that as far as the retailer’s being the customer and we’re not always right and sometimes we’re paying the ass but we are the customers? You know, you’re there to serve us, I believe, I guess you have two customers, you have the retailers and you have the end-user. We do. We do. But I think at the end of the day, it’s important to know what order those two come in. And I also think that it’s important to know that at the end of the day, here’s the reality. There are way more suppliers out there than there are retailers. No doubt about it a level shop like yours, you have got the pick of the litter, you could carry any brand that you want. So at the end of the day, if a brand like Haro is making life difficult for you, in no way, shape, or form, should we be getting your business? So I think that’s something that’s monumentally important for all manufacturers to realize is that Hey, guys, at the end of the day, the number of retailers out there, it’s not getting any bigger and if we’re really being honest, the number of good retailers out there is shrinking just as proportionally. So the idea that we could be in an A level shop if a manufacturer isn’t thinking along the lines of What can I bring to this retailers business? I think they might be missing the boat a little bit. Yeah, I like the way you put that what can you do to serve your customer, the dealer and that’s the thing you know, service it’s about service. You know, what do you do? You guys do a lot of things you design and your spec and you build a great bike, but you know, lots of people do your app, right? else do you did what sets you apart? You know, what’s gonna make people like me want to be a Harley dealer for life, you know. And the thing is, you can’t rest on what you did last year. You got to be good this year. You got to be consistent. And you know, fortunately, you guys are and that’s another thing about service. When we have warranty issues. You could build the best bike in the world if I get bad service in your warranty department or bad service in your shipping department. I mean, that drags your image down if we have the greatest bikes in the world and my guys don’t assemble them properly and make sure they’re set up right Don’t tune them up properly, then, you know, we’re gonna lose. So I mean, we have to be consistent and how do you guys at Haro feel about the service you give your dealers? You know, what do you guys talk about? Because I know there’s so many aspects of vendors service to dealers, you know, do you prioritize any particular one? Do you struggle in some areas? You know, how do you feel about especially service because service has so many dynamic points from anybody’s perspective. But how does Haro look at what you bring how they value, I guess what you guys do for your retailers.

Chad Pickard  22:40

As a retailer, I filled out my very first America’s best bike shop application over five years ago. And to be honest, the first time I was a little anxious, I felt the result of the process would either be the seal of approval or the seal of disapproval for my bike stores. It was shortly after they handed out the awards that I realized this is an excellent opportunity to work with staff on our messaging and customer experiences in our stores. ABBS kind of became the coach we used to find holes in our sales process or staff training. Where else are you going to get critical feedback like that? Go to NBDA.com for more details and to sign up for America’s Best Bike Shop Program.

James Ayres  23:24

Well, I think it’s probably safe to say that if I were to categorize us or picture us, I kind of feel like we are the little Engine That Could you know, we’re a 23 person organization and oftentimes, admittedly, we work in a very reactionary atmosphere. That’s not always great. But I think one of the things that we pride ourselves on and this is hopefully, anybody listening to this would feel the same way our sales department always always always will try to give the dealer what they’re asking for. Yes, we have a printed dealer program, you know, a certain level of buy-in you know, buy as many bikes you get this personal level this stating, we understand though that although that is a printed program, there has to be some flexibility in that. So I think that speaking is a sales department or even an organization overall if there are things that we trip on because of our size, I don’t know of another brand out there that will go the extra mile to try to make it right when we realize that we’ve made a mistake, and we’ve caused a retailer an inconvenience. And that’s it. Boy, we could spend an hour just talking about that alone, you know, reaching out to a Chinese battery manufacturer to try to source keys for a customer who lost their keys to their e-bike battery like that, where it’s you know, would be natural for anybody and another sales target to say, well wait a minute, that’s not my job. That’s one of the things that I’m kind of proud of with our sales team is that is a phrase that you just will not hear out of this organization. It’s not my job. We always, always, always try to help where we can and I think that just kind of spirals back around to the point you made about being a good listener. I understand that again, there’s a program out there but if a retailer is telling me, hey, I’ve got a special circumstance is there something that you can do for me in this special circumstance, there’s always always always I am 100% convinced of this believe it beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is always something you can do. The middle ground might not be where either party wants to be, but there is always a middle ground. So I think that’s where it is incumbent on the manufacturer to be able to find that middle ground and be able to find it through a conversation where neither side is getting all crazy you tell me what you need from me and then I tell you where I can meet you. And you know, hopefully, we settle on some common ground but at the end of the day, you know, especially you know, with chain reaction horror, Oh, those are always easy conversations to have only when we were open the credit departments they card. No just kidding. Just kidding. That was a joke. No joke.

Phil Cohen  25:56

That’s funny because it is your warranty department. It is your Sales Department is your accounting. I mean, they all work together. And it’s like, things aren’t always perfect and you have issues. But maybe it’s because you’re a smaller organization, maybe because the culture that Joe has set up there, the culture service, but maybe it’s that reason why I don’t have trouble talking to somebody in shipping or talking to Amy, about a bill or for having a cash flow issue and tell her, Hey, we’re gonna be late this month, or if I’m right up at my limit, and I say, Hey, can you go ahead and ship that? She’s like, Well, you know, but once we communicate really well, it goes back to that communication. Because a lot of times dealers don’t know that they have auctions and also dealers, a lot of times I think just like a bad customer, a bad dealer will take advantage of the vendor, take advantage and end up trying to beat somebody up over something. You don’t do that to your partner. He should never do that to your partner. You should say, hey, wow, you got screwed up. Can you make it right? But you know, just like we have abusive customers that walk through our retail stores, and I’m sure there are dealers out there that are not the greatest ones and you wish they go away. You know, how do you deal with stuff like that? Nobody likes to turn away business. But at some point, you know that hey, abusive customers need to go away. If you’re

James Ayres  27:23

just like you described in your introduction, there are definitely numbers that pop up on our caller ID where literally, it seems like wow, the entire sales department had to go to the bathroom at the same time. Yeah, we definitely have the 100% and I think that’s why you asked a great, I don’t know if it was necessarily a question but you were kind of leading into it. There are perks isn’t the right word, but there are benefits because of where you are in our food chain. And I guess if I’m going to be totally transparent, you’ve earned a lot of the things that we do from time to time. You know, you need a bike shop, free freight, you know, out of our California warehouse, whatever. I’m going to do that because I know that on your next order, you know, when I say, hey, Phil, I’ve got a 2017 carbon hardtail, you know, what can you do for me on it, you’re going to be like, you know, I can help with that. So it’s a very reciprocal relationship when it gets challenging is when you’ve got to kind of look at that dealer and say, Mr. dealer, you know, you’re asking me to send a 90-pound e-bike from one end of the country to the other. You’re asking me to cover the freight on it because you ordered it two days late. Can I meet you in the middle and split the freight with you? You know what, I’ll just go buy it from somebody else, then. You’ll never hear anybody in our sales department say, you should do that. Do you know why? Because you bought six bikes from us so far in the last year, and now you’re facing, you know, you’ll never get that out of our organization. And I’m not proud of that. But I think the flip side of that coin is for those dealers who do earn a few special favors here and there. You’ve earned every last one of those things that you mentioned early on, you buy lots and you pay your bill on time. That in this industry is gold. And I think that’s one of the things that any manufacturer could agree on is it is baffling to me when we get retailers who are 90 plus days past due yet you’re friends with them on Facebook and you say that they just went to Cancun? Wait what not that never happens, does it?  Never… No

Phil Cohen  29:25

Well but that really comes down to the quality of customer you’re dealing with because if you have a customer that has that much contempt for you that they would take their dollars and not pay their bills and I understand struggling in the last 30 years I should have gone out of business twice I was just too stupid to know the first time and the second time I got I got real scared and said whoa Something’s got to give you know their ebbs and flows in our businesses. And you know, none of us are perfect. A lot of us are enthusiasts and we know a lot about bicycles and we love the sport. We love people. Sometimes we’re not great business people. And that’s why I think, you know, our industry needs to help us, help us make good choices. Don’t send me 60% of my annual volume in one shipment. And I’m not going to be able to pay for it on time. That just doesn’t make sense. In loading us up, it doesn’t make sense, being a good partner makes sense. I just hope that when we work together towards a common goal, which to me would be being a good customer buying lots of stuff and paying for it on time when you guys make programs that allow us to do that, so we don’t hang ourselves, you know, don’t give us enough rope to hang ourselves. We’re going to be better customers long term. And a lot of us need some coaching. We need some handhold and that’s what the NBA is here to do. It’s to help you know, we want retailers to be excellent. We want retailers to continue to grow and to continue to thrive, not just survive. I just can’t say enough over the years since I’ve been NBDA member, how much I’ve gotten mentorship and Dino, there’s some really sharp people in our industry. And I have access to those people through phone calls or emails. And they’re there. Most of them are very, very helpful if somebody like me calls up so, you know, having that ability, and I think a lot of the best vendors, they also have people in place to help me if I’m struggling, and I can talk to you or I can talk to Amy or I can talk to somebody who can help me figure it out on things that I’m not sure about, or at least just be a sounding board. Those are extremely, extremely helpful situations. I’ve used those to my advantage. Once I learned that they were out there for me, I’m not shy, I will pick up the phone and call so that’s, you know, going back to why you gave me your cards so many years ago and you rue the day Did that right?

James Ayres  32:03

I don’t know what what you could possibly be referring to.

Phil Cohen  32:09

Hey, I have your personal cell phone number. So that was really when you’re traveling and you see my phone call, you’re like, what is he calling me about? I’m gonna be patient this week? Not, that that happens often or last week?

James Ayres  32:28

Yeah, I think that’s such a great point about when you have an issue and you need a contact on the inside, knowing that you’ve got a resource with that manufacturer that you’re working with. I think ultimately, at the end of the day, we all just want to be able to help whether that’s from a manufacturing level helping our retailer whether that’s a retail level trying to help their customer, I think, you know, in this is I think just human nature. You know, where we struggle is when we have that retailer on the other end of the phone, and if we’re not able to solve a problem, maybe he is a retailer from New England and it’s the middle of winter. And he’s in the shop today. And he’s just lonely. And he wants to talk about everything under the sun. Not saying that those retailers exist. But when they do, it’s kind of like, Okay, then I gotta find a way to. So the long story short to that is, whenever you call, the calls are irrelevant. They’re purposeful, they are usually either expressing gratitude or asking for a hand with something. And that’s something that I could do something with both of those calls, I can accept the kind words, and if there is ever something that you’re in a jam with, I can move heaven and earth to make sure that that jam goes away quickly. And I think that as manufacturers, that’s, that kind of needs to be our role with all of our retailers. Because at the end of the day, what I know for sure is that this is business that we have to earn. It does not come inherently to brands like us and like you said early on. If we’re not going that extra mile then we don’t deserve it. So I’ll tell any retailer that would like to call me up how appreciative I am of their business. Even the ones that Challenging those guys, you know, they make the world go around too. So you just try to meet as many needs as you can at the end of the day.

Phil Cohen  34:06

Well, and hopefully we think about our challenging relationships in any aspect of our lives as ones that are in transition for the better, because there’s always hope. You know, I think a lot of times, once people have better understandings of each other, they get along a lot better and they understand and that’s the thing I think when you’re talking about, if I call up and I need something, well, I try not to be too needy, because like, I need to bank you know, have in our bank account between us I have to, you know, have a good balance because I never know one day I may be in a bind, and I may need you to pull a string and do something for me special. And I don’t want to be the guy that every time you turn around, oh no. What does he want this time? I want to be the guy who’s a good customer, but you know, the one or two or three times a year that some happens? I need something to happen. I was like, I can have expected to happen. You know, in a lot of times, I don’t believe my expectations are unreasonable. And that brings me to expectations. I think in our relationship, I think expectations and those having those expectations defined really go a long way and what quality of relationships we have. So how do you feel about that word expectation?

James Ayres  35:24

I think it’s a great word. I think sometimes it’s a bit of a loaded word. But I think that in our business, it’s an important one. Because I think that you know, what characteristic is inherent to our business. The word preseason, everybody has a precision program, in the way I was taught in this business was that the precision time period, you know, when that outside rep walks in with that shiny new catalog, and you know, and he opens it up to page one, I was taught that that is basically the time where you sit down and you partner and you go through and you say, Hey, I can do really well with this model in my shop, this model, I really don’t have that customer. And I think that’s where as a manufacturer, we have to trust you to know that you are the expert of your market, you’re the expert of your market, you’re the expert of your business, you’re the expert of your customer. So I think that there is that expectation out there that when we do launch a precision program, and we go in, and we, you know, open up the shiny new catalog, it’s a give and take what’s going to work for you what’s going to work for me and at the, again, tying back into that word expectation. I’m going to expect that there will be something on my menu that you’ll find appealing and want to order. And like you said, You know, I will expect that you’ll, you’ll order it, you’ll pay for it on time. When a customer comes in and asks questions about it. You’ll be knowledgeable about the brand, you’ll be knowledgeable about the product. Because ultimately, that’s where I see the most value, not only in a chain reaction but in all of our retailers. You guys tell our story. At the end of the day, it’s my belief that you can have the fanciest website in the world but that website isn’t going to tell our story to face to face as a retailer would. And when it’s a retailer that’s excited about the brand excited about the people behind the brand. That’s gold, that’s gold to a manufacturer. So again, kind of, you know, going back to that word expectation, I would expect that there are things you know, that I’ll rely on you on throughout the course of the year, being a good brand ambassador, telling a consumer you know why there’s value in this bike versus competitors. And I think there is an expectation on my end, you know, some of them we’ve touched on before, you know, certainly no shortage of inventory and supply chain issues over the last year, year and a half. And I think a lot of manufacturers could probably say that, but I have an expectation to make sure that when you do call in and you do need a favor, you do need a sounding board, that we’re there to meet that need. I’ve never understood how a manufacturer who doesn’t know your business to the level of detail that you do could come in and say you know, this product is right For you, this product is right for you. I think that they can certainly ask if they can try something in your store. But that’s always been a bit of a dysfunctional thing for me when a retailer is telling me Look, you make a great $10,000 carbon wonder bike, but we just don’t have you know, the Tour de France guy coming in here that’s not our market. You know, if you want to sell that level, buy it, you’d need to go see Johnny dig, we’ll down the street, that kind of thing. So I think as far as expectation goes, it’s something that needs to be tempered and talked about and put on the table early on, whether it’s the preseason time period or their relationship in general. And not only do I have to understand it as a manufacturer but so does my entire sales force, whether that’s an inside sales rep or an outside sales rep.

Phil Cohen  38:44

I really appreciate the in-depth description. You put a lot of value in the bicycle retailer. You know, we’re the tip of the spear out here for most brands and most products. There is a lot of good shops out there. And then there’s a lot of shops that aren’t And some of those shops aren’t doing the job. Some of them are doing a great job. We try to get better every day is our store great. I tell people our stores great 50% of the time, the other 50% keeps me up at night. And, you know, we have room to improve as a store our training, lots of things we can improve. And we need to try to continually get better, go ahead and raise the bar challenge the dealers to be better. But what happens when you have a dealer that doesn’t step up? That’s not a good dealer. Are you just gonna continue to do business with that dealer? Or do they eventually go away? You know, because I think bad players in any market are bad for all of us. Just curious how you feel about that.

James Ayres  39:48

It’s interesting statement. If I’m being totally transparent, I would say that we have a pretty high percentage of our dealers who don’t rely on as an anchor brand who do well. With 50 units a year with us, it doesn’t mean that we like them any less, but we understand we’re not a huge part of their offering. And that’s okay. We would we love to be positioned in every chain reaction out there. Sure, we would certainly make my life a lot easier. But I think just because they’re smaller, and they buy less from me, I think ultimately, at the end of the day, again, he goes back to you hit on so many good points at the beginning of this. We enjoy doing business with people that we enjoy. So if I’m talking to one of our dealers, who has 20 or 30 or 40 bikes with us a year, I understand that I need to cultivate their relationship first. Because if I’m a good salesperson what’s going to wind up happening, or at least my goal is, what I hope happens is that over the years as we continue to work together, he gets that sense of just kind of like what you alluded to at the beginning of the phone call. Somebody on the other end of this line cares about my business. He keeps calling me once a month to check in on me. I don’t admittedly buy a lot of products from But you know what he’s easy to work with. He does make a competitively SPECT bike, I’m kind of tired of getting the screws turned, let’s give this a try. At the end of the day, that’s kind of what a salesperson’s role is, you know, you keep feeding those relationships, and you hope that there’s no more business to be had there. I think the one thing that we can kind of all agree on is this pie is not getting any bigger. I don’t think the overall bicycle market

Phil Cohen  41:26

and reward is only right. So, unfortunately, it’s not getting bigger, but we’re working to change that at every aspect.

James Ayres  41:33

Absolutely. And I think that there are so many people out there that are doing such important work. But at least right now, what I know about this business is that if Haro has a successful year, that means we took market share from somebody else, and it works exactly vice versa too. So it’s being able to cultivate those relationships, ask the questions, be able to get the retailer on the phone and just say, you know, Hey, I know you’ve only bought BMX bikes from us in the past. Would you be willing to try a couple of our kids, you know, entry-level mountain bikes throwing it out there? 98% of the time, you might get told no, but 2% of the time, you might get told Yes. I think as long as you can ask that question in a friendly way to where the dealer understands, you’re just asking for an opportunity. That’s all you can do. That is true.

Phil Cohen  42:17

And I guess I take it for granted because we have a great relationship and, and I really, really, really go out of my way to try to cultivate good relationships with everybody in my life, especially the people I send money to every month. So no ex-wives, I don’t have any ex-wives of sending money to..

Chad Pickard  42:38

What does being a member of the NBDA mean? Go to nbda.com to learn about member benefits, programs, and preferred partner discounts.

Phil Cohen  42:51

As we come to a close today, are there anything you want to add any specific things that maybe we didn’t touch on the You know, we could talk about relationships in business, because a lot of these things translate over to every part of your life, you know, positive relationships.

James Ayres  43:08

Yeah, I think that two big things be a better listener than you are a talker. Understand that there’s always a middle ground there. And it just at the end of the day, be a kind person. You know, this is supposed to be a fun business that we’re in. And I understand that dollars are getting traded across the table, you know, every day, but like I said, we do business with people that we enjoy talking to, and we want to have conversations with so that’s where being just a good-hearted human being, hopefully energy a little bit of this along the way.

Phil Cohen  43:41

Well, I think that goes a long way. I was going to add at the end, I wanted to challenge all the vendors just remember whether you dominate the market or you’re just struggling to break into this market. Don’t forget who your customer is. Don’t forget that they are the customer. customers need to be treated properly. Whether they’re buying an $8 tube or a $10,000 bicycle, their customer in the guy that buys the $8 tube today might buy the $10,000 bike next week. You know, they need to be treated with respect and kindness and patience in vendors. Please remember the retailers are the customers. And I would tell the retailers, remember that you’re the customer but remember how bad customers act and don’t act like that. And work hard to be a great customer when a great customer calls the people on the other end, smile and are happy to answer the phone. And I think we should work really, really hard for all the retailers to be great customers. And with we all do that if we’re all looking out for each other, then we’re going to be great partners, then we’re going to all be profitable then we’re going to grow this pie and everybody rides off into the sunset half. Amen to that. Amen to that, or vintage bikes as long as it were on bicycles, right? Got two wheels and a set of pedals. I’m a happy camper. Well, James, I really, really appreciate you taking the time today to speak with us. I think good relationships make for a good life. And none of us are in this by ourselves. We depend on each other told somebody we’re sitting in different parts of the same boat. So if the retailer’s go down, you guys might be up in the front of the boat, but you’re coming with us eventually. So we all got to work together. And we can all be strong in this industry can be strong. Yeah, we’re down in stowage. You guys are up in the first class, maybe up on the top, maybe you’ll get in the lifeboat quicker. But no, that’s kind of what we believe it with anything else, James?

James Ayres  45:40

No, I just wanted to say thank you to you and NBDA for having me on and giving her this opportunity. Like I said early in the conversation, you know, these are always fun. So I seriously appreciate it. It’s been a good time. If anybody wants to get in touch with you. How can they reach you? Easy. Lots of phone numbers on our website www dot hora. bikes calm were pretty easy 1-800-289-4276 which would also be one 800 by Haro, DUI Haro, email wise again, pretty straightforward letter J as in James, and then my last name Aryef So if we read it across, it’ll kind of look like j rez at Haro bikes calm. I said hate mail as well. Please don’t send nudes. Just a joke. Just a joke. Let’s try to have a little fun with this. And yeah, as Phil will attest to I’m pretty flaky but I will absolutely positively get back to you. I’m working on that. That’s a 2020 goal of mine to be a better responder. Well, you do pretty good most of the time

Phil Cohen  46:38

is well, that one time. Remember that one time and we’re not gonna talk I? Yeah, we don’t need it. We don’t need to talk about that. You were traumatized? Because you got a new picture of me in the mail. Maybe that was the therapy goes a long way though. Yeah, exactly. Well, we always have fun we always cut up but one thing I was gonna say my name is Phil Cohen. You, anybody, wants to contact me it’d be Phil at chain reaction ga.com ga for GA. We’re not the big guys in England or Ireland or wherever they are. Chain Reaction ga.com. And my phone number here at the store is 706-855-2024. If anybody has any comments or questions or wants to chat, I love to chat. I’m a chatter. So anyway, we had fun. Don’t forget, if you’re not a member of the NVDA, please join. What are you waiting for? The other thing is a bicycle, retail radio. We have these podcasts, and they’re excellent. I don’t know how good this one is. But we’ll have to wait and see that we’ve got a bunch of them up. I recommend anybody in our industry to listen to them all and come back because we will be doing them adding new ones several a month and there’s tons of great information from a lot of different people. So join the NBA with To bicycle, retail radio, and let’s all be successful in this business. And again, James, thanks for showing us today.

James Ayres  48:06

I appreciate it. My pleasure. It was a blast.

Rod Judd  48:09

This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

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The post Tips for Strengthening the Dealer/Vendor Relationship appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

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Episode 21 – BMX Foundation

Tue, 8/18 10:42AM • 44:05

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bike, program, USA BMX, BMX, started, kids, people, cycling, bicycle, track, ride, talking, retailers, stem, school, foundation, BMX track, sport, realized, hear

SPEAKERS

Rod Judd, Pat Hus, Mike Duvarney

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle Retail Radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Pat Hus  00:16

Hello, this is Pat who’s coming to you from the Bicycle Retail Radio presented by the National Bicycle Dealer Association. And today I am here with Mike Duvarney, who is the executive director of the USA BMX foundation. And we have a really interesting discussion planned for today. But before we jump into a conversation with Mike and him telling us a little bit about himself, I thought I’d just give you a quick background on me been in the bike industry for close to 40 years going back to Newbury Park, California. My dad bought a bike shop when I was 14, manage the store and college, and eventually led to an outside wrapping job and ultimately have worked for a number of companies in the bike engine. Including Cannondale American bicycle group. Titus Easton Bell sports fan most recently was with Interbike for almost seven years as the trade show director. Today, I am a consultant in the industry and working for a number of different companies on specific projects and looking for my next challenge my next opportunity. So that’s a little bit on me. I won’t bore you with any more than that. And now I’d like to turn it over and welcome, Mike. Mike, welcome, and thanks for being a part of this.

Mike Duvarney  01:27

Absolutely. I appreciate you having me. 

Pat Hus  01:29

So I spoke with john David a couple of weeks ago and he told me his background who was the executive director of USA BMX, but tell me your background, give us your background in the related industry. And then how you got to USA BMX. 

Mike Duvarney  01:43

So John, and the majority of staff at USA BMX or BMX, right, they grew up in it, they know it, they know it, well. These guys really cut their teeth and BMX at USA BMX. I mean, there is the staff here that have been here since the 70s. A good percentage The staff have been here 20 years or more. I know it’s crazy. I’m the exact opposite of that. So for 16 years, I worked in the camp and after school and education market, people hear that they think sports camps so they think of a local kid, or local coach meeting some people at the parkour gym. This was a large scale 11 different sports, multiple states, hundreds of camps going on in a week. So that really helped me and prepared me for a lot of this has helped with our success. I sold that business in 2017. My true passion is developing youth programming. I started a consulting group. In my first month, I had zero clients. Within a few months, I had some of the largest names in business, USA BMX, eventually was one of those clients. I started out 10 hours a week and 2013 helping develop which would be some of our first educational programmings. Four years later resulted in a full-time opportunity. He’s the executive director of the foundation. 

Pat Hus  02:56

That’s fantastic. You came from a very different background. Great to hear somebody that has that broader perspective and brings that to the table every day. I got to believe that helps you with what you’re trying to do. 

Mike Duvarney  03:07

I guess it just depends on which side of the table that you’re on. I like to think that it helps. And I like to think that I have a different perspective. Not everyone agrees with me and I respect that. But I note that I am truly passionate about what it is that we are doing. And I bring that to work with me every single day. I think I have the best job in the world. And I have some very, very lofty goals here at USA BMX foundation. At the end of the day. I just want to put more kids on bikes.

Pat Hus  03:36

That’s awesome. Let me ask you this. Do you ride bikes now that you’ve been a part of this crazy industry that we like to call home? Are you riding bikes now?

Mike Duvarney  03:45

Do you mean my crazy collector like the rest of you? Yes, I’ve started so I’d always had a mountain bike. And like most people, that bike just collected dust in the garage, but once I started, I realized that I have an opportunity once one of these guys say, Hey, you want to go for a ride and I’m out riding with, you know, an Olympian, I should probably take advantage of those opportunities. That’s something I’m going to regret if I don’t do that, and then just also realizing that it’s like golf, how much business is done on the golf course, I realized how much business was done on bikes. In fact, for the longest time, the CEO of Sam’s Club had a podcast called Business on Bikes. And so for me, I thought, you know what, I need to ride more. So that developed into a couple of other bikes, and then I really went all in and got a gravel bike. And I absolutely love this gravel bike. It’s the best bike I’ve ever owned. And honestly, you could take away all my other bikes and I’d be happy with just this bike.

Pat Hus  04:39

That’s so great to hear you say that because it is the bike of choice these days. It enables you to go wherever you want to go. If you want to go off-road and you can if you want to go around on the street, you can it’s really the most versatile thing that’s happened in a long, long time. So

Mike Duvarney  04:52

glad to hear you’re out there. Well, I gotta tell you, it was forced on me if I’m being brutally honest. It was forced on me and I didn’t want If I didn’t want to be that trendy guy, you know, and I got the bike and I started riding it. And it didn’t take long to figure out why it is so popular. I absolutely love this bike. And so you know, now I’m already looking at the next level of a gravel bike. So I’m in hook, line, and sinker. 

Pat Hus  05:18

Awesome. All right, well, let’s shift gears a little bit because we did a podcast couple weeks back with john and he talked a lot about us a BMX really painted a very encouraging and exciting picture of what’s happening in the BMX world today, and it’s great. And I want you to bear in mind, our audience is primarily weighted towards bicycle dealers, bicycle retailers. So that’s who we’re talking to here today. And I think John really expressed to them the opportunity that’s happening within the BMX world and a lot of these retailers who maybe have said, you know, BMX is not important to our business anymore. Maybe hopefully, they’re rethinking that way of approaching the business. And today, we’re going to shift gears over to the foundation side and again, With a retail flavor, let’s think in that those types of terms, but I think everybody needs to understand a little bit more about the USA BMX Foundation, how it got started, and how it correlates with USA BMX, the sanctioning body? 

Mike Duvarney  06:13

Great question. And I’m sure we’ll chop this up into smaller segments, but the short of it is from the mid-90s to 2013 that USA BMX Foundation was a nonprofit organization that housed our race for life in Waunakee scholarship, two wonderful programs that have been in existence for a long time. You can find more information on our website, USA BMX Foundation, org, but from really then 2013 to 2017 is when I came into the picture, and we started to really see what the foundation could be, and really gearing it more towards youth and getting more kids on bikes. And so we started to develop that youth programming. We came up with a set of programs like I said, I was working 10 hours a week. And as we develop these programs, we needed to get out there and tell the world about it. And we really didn’t do a great job of that from 2013 to 2017, we went to a few educational conferences, did some email marketing, really did zero social media. And so the programs grew virally over that period of time. And so from 2017, is when we really started getting going, we launched full time 2017, we launched our track modeling program or other read ride program, which I know we’ll probably get into all that hired or second staff members, December 2017, and then our third staff member, and from there, it just kind of taken off. And so now we’re a fully separate, fully functional 501 c three. And our goal every day is I mentioned before, and I’m sure I’ll say later on in the podcasts a dozen times our mission purpose is to get more kids on bikes.

Pat Hus  07:45

Yeah. So talk a little bit more about the goals the foundation, obviously the overarching is getting more kids on bikes, but there’s a lot more depth to what you’re doing and you guys list them on your website, these six Foundation’s goals. Can you talk a little bit more about those and That’s gonna dovetail right into some of the programs that you guys are doing today?

Mike Duvarney  08:03

So I’ll break it into two parts. I’ll talk about the goals of the foundation, and then kind of our mission, vision, etc. But then I think the real important second part of this is, how do we work with the sanctioning body? How do we work with USA BMX, right? How do we actually say BMX? So our mission statement is pretty short and simple. It is creating a passion for education and sport through cycling. And one of the things that people point out all the time is it doesn’t say anything about BMX. We are all about BMX, and everything we do every day involves BMX, but we’re about getting kids on bikes, and I believe that if you fill that funnel, the more kids you put on bikes, the more kids are going to ride BMX and so that guides really everything that we do. And then the second part of that is how we work with the sanctioning body. We utilize the framework and infrastructure of their tracks, their track operators, and athletes. And so you look at USA BMX I know john touched on 320 plus tracks, and each of those has a track operator board, etc. that network allows us to really plug kids into that framework. Each one of our programs provides a trial membership to the local BMX track. So not only are we working with the kids in the schools each and every day, thousands of kids per day, literally but where there’s a specific call to action to get all of those kids out to the local BMX track. And I know you and John talked a lot about the growth with USA BMX. I think a lot of that growth comes from their initiative with this programming, but they’ve invested so heavily in

Pat Hus  09:41

This, the part that I love is what you guys are doing at the school level, which is, again, we’re talking to a retailer audience here. And this is where I hope we can paint the picture of opportunity for these retailers to get more involved. But I love the fact that you guys are going into the schools and talking about things and getting kids out on And getting them engaged in multiple ways. So you guys really have four cornerstones that you are focused on in your education initiatives. Can you walk us through those four and kind of give some depth of what they’re doing and what the kids are doing?

Mike Duvarney  10:12

Yeah, absolutely. Before I get into each one of I think one of the things if we’re talking specifically to that retailer, part of the reason these programs have been so successful is the approach. And I have met hundreds of deeply passionate people that have spent their entire lives in the bike industry. And I think that’s a positive and negative, right because when someone’s passionate about something, they lead with it, and you can see it and you can feel it and I totally get that. But if you want something you’ve never had before, you have to do something that you haven’t done before. Right. So with these educational programs, their educational programs for cycling programs second, and some people don’t know how to react to that. But these are truly educational programs. And what I mean by that, is we take the auspice of education specifically STEM education, science, technology, engineering, and math, or in some cases, steam, science, technology, engineering, arts, and math. And we use the bike as the framework to deliver that education and the educational term for that are disguised learning is disguised learning concepts. And so through that, these programs have been vetted. They’ve been aligned, aligned, meaning that you hear so much about today’s educational standards. People are teaching to the test schools and teachers are teaching to the test. These programs are aligned for specific grade levels. So the things that are talking about in the classroom are in these specific programs. And that’s part of what has really helped with the growth of this. So when I’m out talking or our track or our athletes are out there talking about these programs, their educational first cycling second, and that is open so many doors for us. So the first program that we came up with was the STEM program, and it’s basically an eight chapter, BMX program where students are going to use a bike to learn for Friction resistance or conference, etc. Bikes are simple machines. And as I start to use those words, a lot of different visions go through people’s minds. Just to give a very specific example one of the chapters, students are going to ride the bike with a stock tire. On a BMX bike. It’s a smooth tread tire, and they’re going to talk about the handling properties of that tire. What does it sound like? It’s smooth, it doesn’t really make a sound. What does it feel like it feels like a tire? Well, now the students are going to swap out that front tire for a super knobby, aggressive front tire. Well, that has now changed the handling properties of that bike, very similar to studded snow tires on the front of the car. How does it sound while it’s louder? How does it feel it’s bumpier. Well, that results in more friction, more resistance, slower times. I mean, I say that and we all get that. But if you’re a fourth or fifth grader, this stuff all of a sudden it’s like a light bulb goes off in your head and this is the program that I wish I had when I was that age. So total. That’s the first program. It’s an eight-chapter program developed to get kids on the bike and really help them understand and overcome that barrier to entry to have it.

Pat Hus  13:10

Are you teaching the teachers to present this? Or do you have people that are going into the classroom and doing this?

Mike Duvarney  13:16

I referencing my sports camp history and model before what drove me insane almost literally, was the fact that we have hundreds of tamps going on a week and those were staffed by staff that had direct reports to me and, and it was something that we are managing. And so before I even came to USA, BMX, I had in my mind, this vision of the next thing I was going to develop, which was going to be a teach the teacher model, and get out from under that way of managing all of that. And so that’s exactly what all of these programs are. So the program is student-led student taught. There’s an instructor there to help them, but we sell this as a kit, which includes five bikes, five helmets, tools, stand alternative tread tires. And we ship that to the schools. And then that school that boys and girls club that KCC, YMCA, etc, use it for school time after school time summer camp. And the numbers for that program are actually pretty staggering. So to date with just that stem kit alone, we sold 781 of those stem kits. Well, if you if I’m a retailer, and I know there are five bikes in each of that, you can do the math and see that that’s a ton of bikes. Yeah. So you know, and so that’s 781 Park stands that are in schools across the country, you know, and so the great thing about this program is, most people when they think stem, they think tech and technology. These programs are not consumable, right? It’s something that they’re going to use and kids are going to go through it. And so we have some of these programs that have been in place since 2013. Since we initially started, were 10 kids at a time go through this program. There. schools that have had hundreds of kids use these programs time and time again. And so it’s truly something that happens literally every single day. And I’ve had people question and asking challenges that you can go to our website, there’s a map of where every program is around the country, you can see that there is a USA BMX Foundation STEM program going on every single day, somewhere in the United States. So it’s pretty amazing to think about, but all of that is being done by either volunteer or after school program providers, teachers, track operators around the US.

Pat Hus  15:34

Okay, that’s what I’m wondering have to figure out and your target age and grade for the STEM program, you’re looking at fourth and fifth graders primarily, is that right? It’s really third, fourth, and fifth, I use the example of fourth and fifth, it’s really when they start getting that dexterity that familiarity. And honestly, with the 20-inch bike, it’s also a size thing. So it’s really geared towards third, fourth, and fifth. I know I’ve been going on and on about the program for a while because, you know, I love it. I’m very proud of that. But one of the things that surprised me the most about the program is how many middle schools we have purchased it because it speaks to that kid. That kid that maybe missed it the first time around, you know, when you’re in the classroom and you’re starting to get that glazed overlook. And some of these concepts, you put a kid outside on a bike, they just get it.

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Mike Duvarney  16:35

Do you mind if we jump into the track modeling program?  

Pat Hus  16:37

No, absolutely. I was going to preface this but before I jump into the track modeling, to me, this BMX STEM program is ideal for setting the stage and get the kids excited about it right and not every kid’s gonna take to it but a lot of them will and they want more. And now there’s another organization called Project bike tech that’s out there today that is at the high school level were and they’re actually starting to look to Towards Middle School. So now you got a kid hooked. Now there’s something that they can graduate into at the high school level where they can actually learn how to become a bicycle mechanic and become valuable coming out of high school or during high school. So there are programs out there that are coming together to really where we can start growing the next wave of not only, you know, riders, but people that could actually make a career out of the bicycle industry, which is exciting. So anyway, I just wanted to share that story, because I think project bike tech would actually align really, really well with this. But let’s talk about it because I was watching the videos online and I really got a kick out of it. Man, how fun would it have been to do what you guys are doing with these kids on the track modeling, so talk about track modeling in the school because it’s really cool. 

Mike Duvarney  17:44

So track modeling program, it came to existence, from the fact that I had teachers calling and saying, I love the STEM program, but it includes five bikes and an only serves 10 kids at a time. I need something that incorporates my whole classroom or grade level. And so as I started sketching out ideas, I’m a big believer in the arts. And I really wanted something that was hands-on something that was able to reach more kids. And it came from this idea of a school asking to build a track. And the school said, we’re interested in building a track, but we want the students to build the track. And as I started talking to them, I thought that they were talking about building a replica scale track. And they were talking about building a life-size track, right, and, and so as we started talking through this, I started sketching some ideas out. And then when I realized what they were talking about, I was like, here’s the program. And there were two folks at the Tulsa Sports Commission that I worked very closely with on this and they’re big partners of ours. I know you and John talked about the facility in Tulsa a little bit. And they were really starting to champion our STEM program. And I said, What do you guys think about this and I laid it out. And then we just sat there brainstorm. for the day, and that birth really tracks modeling program, and so it’s a steam program. It is only for fourth graders, it’s aligned with in fourth grade. And I’ll put this challenge out there because it’s something that I think people have a hard time getting their mind around. This is the only program that I know of that encompasses an entire week of school, bell to bell Monday through Friday, 25 plus hours of instruction. The schools give us this entire week devoted to BMX. And so students start by conceptualizing their idea of what a BMX track is. They’re watching videos looking at pictures, they understand the history of BMX back from the flat track days and how it’s evolved into an Olympic sport. And as that has changed, how the tracks have changed, bikes have changed, technology has changed. And then from there, they start working into groups. And I’ll tell you, Pat, this is that secret sauce to this program is this next part, which is the social and emotional learning and it’s a big buzzword in education. Right now, but so many people today are trying to figure out how do I work with other people? How do I work in groups, you know, we don’t work really independently, we work with other people, we don’t get to pick who we work with. And so this program really targets that. And so there’s a big focus on group projects and roles. And it’s a major focus on design planning, engineering, architecture, and construction. So they Skype with one of our pro athletes, and they get to ask them their first-person perspective, what is it like to ride a BMX track? What features do you like? What do you look for in a track? And so they start to build these concepts of what their track could be. And then they ask questions of a track builder or real track builder, and what features work well together. How tall should my features be? How many berms should I have? How tall should the tabletop be? And so they’re getting to ask questions from a track builder and there’s some interaction and now they’re starting to layer in the educational world. They call it scaffolding to suddenly scaffold these countries. concepts. And then really the highlight of the program is on the third day the students go out to the local BMX track, and we split them into three groups. Of course, they get to ride the track, one of the groups is going to ride the track. And the majority of these kids are riding a track for the first time and many are riding a bike for the first time. So imagine never riding a bike and then going on a BMX track. And people just lose their minds when they hear this, right, because they’re trying to envision it and it’s exactly what you think it is. It does not go smoothly at first, but what you see is confidence. And you see these kids grasping it, and your kids fall. Yeah, kids fall, and they get right back up, and they go again. And now we’re building resiliency, which is a big part of building kids today. So one group is riding another group is learning how the track features and the stem component factors into those tracks features. And those berms that they thought on the video were six or eight feet tall. They realize they’re 14 feet tall and they can’t walk Upon the smoke like a cereal bowl. And then the last part is the third group realizes the track has a system and the track cannot operate independently of these systems. Why do we have like, extend our operating hours, and make it safe? Why do we have a snack bar? Why do we have a parking lot? Why do we have speakers, and they realize that you know, independently these are components, but they all work together to form a system. And so now they’ve taken their knowledge that they’ve built from the videos and their own sketches and designs. The knowledge from the pro rider, the knowledge from the track builder, and their firsthand personal experience, they go back, make some revisions. And now they build a replica scale model of their own BMX track and they build it out of the dirt. And so they build on a two-foot by four-foot board. And one of my favorite things to see is when adults see these kids doing this for the first time and we bring all the dirt in we bring all the supplies in and all day, Thursday and all day Friday. These kids spend the day building bringing their creations to life. And so it’s really heavily rated in the earth sciences and mathematics, scale and repin ratio really aren’t introduced to fifth grade, these kids are understanding how to bring all of this design to life. And it’s really, really amazing to watch. And then on the last day, we hand out trophies and awards. It’s judged by a panel of local communities. And a lot of times that attracts builder, retailers, we often invite retailers to come in and partake in this. And it’s really a wonderful thing to see. And so as an asterisk, to all of that. We’re working on some really cool stuff. There are some organizations nationwide that have seen this and their heads exploded, and they’re trying to get us to take it to astronomical levels. We’ve had a couple of different groups ask us if we can do this across 20,000 schools. And the answer is no hard, hard. No, you know, and just mathematically figuring out the hundred 80 days of the school year, getting all of those kids out to the track, it just doesn’t happen. And so We are working on a way to scale this. We’re working on some VR AR technology where students don’t have to go to the tracker if there’s not a track nearby. But we are working on some really exciting things with some really fun partners to make this happen. And so it’s a steam program again, specifically designed for fourth graders.

Pat Hus  24:18

 Awesome.

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Pat Hus  24:44

Just because we got more stuff to cover. I’m going to shift gears on you. And have you talked a little bit about the reader ride program at the root of it. It’s similar to just you know good old fashioned AR and AR points that I remember my kids having to read and get their AR points but you’re Have a little different spin to it, talk to us a little bit about reading arrive, Read the ride comes back to the concept I mentioned earlier where I wanted something a whole school could do with a whole school to do at one time and get behind reading is reading. I’m a horrible reader. And the funny thing about myself is I have a passion for education and learning and I hate reading books. I’ll read an article, I’ll read anything online. I love absorbing information on learning, but I hate reading long, boring books. And I don’t think I did it enough as a kid and Harry Potter wasn’t around then, you know, back then it was Choose Your Own Adventure or one of those books, right? But for me, I want to instill a love of reading in kids. And so we encourage kids to read minutes or minutes whether you’re reading a newspaper, a comic book or a book, top reader for each grade level gets a variety of prizes. The top reader for the school gets a BMX bike and helmet. And it really is that simple. And it’s funny to see schools implement this program and the kids that they thought would participate or not The ones that are participating, they have kids that they would have sworn are not readers and hate reading those kids like myself. And they come out of the woodwork to own that bike and win that bike. And so it’s a great program. We have it going on all across the country.  Fantastic. I’m like you, I’m not a big reader. But if I was a fifth-grader, and I knew if I read a bunch of stuff, I have a chance of winning a bike. I’m all about it. So are those bikes? Part of corporate sponsorship? How do you guys come about those bikes are they donated? Can a local retailer be the donator of the bike and helmet? How does that work? 

Mike Duvarney  26:34

So all of our programs include some sort of cycling hook or cycling component like, you know, even our school speeches and our school program, which I think we’ll talk about in a second, but really, forever and ever. We were supported by Free Agent and KHS. You talk about retailers and bike dealers. I got to give a shout out to Wayne de Grey with KHS and Wayne taught me everything about this bike business and I learned so much from him. He was our partner on this for really six years, almost seven years. So with that he really was our main sponsor, our main provider was until recently mongoose came to us. And mongoose really loved what we were doing. They noticed, you know, all of the thousands of kids we are impacting. And so we’ve been talking to them for forever over a year to try and put this together. And so now, the bikes that we provide for all of our programs, and this is new for our STEM programs for our readers to ride programs, track modeling, everything is all mongoose bytes.

Pat Hus  27:36

Okay. Well, I just glad that they’re down. Go ahead. 

Mike Duvarney  27:38

Well, I was gonna say, Pat, I’m glad that they’re getting bikes. I will say that I have had local bike shops to come to me and ask if they could donate a bike to read the ride. My answer is yes, absolutely. Yes. 100%. We provide the prizes, they provide the bike, and that gives that dealer that plugin all day every day. Yes, yes, yes. And I’m We’ll talk about, you know, bike dealers and getting them more involved. You know, hopefully, we do at some point, but absolutely, yes.

Pat Hus  28:07

Okay, good. Good. Good, good. Good. So talk about motivational speaking in the schools and trying to inspire these kids. And how does one go about that? What kind of speakers are we talking about? And how broad is that today, your motivational speaking piece? This came to me when I stood on a stage a few years ago, in front of some elementary school students, and I realized it just dawned on me. I mean, I’ve known it for a while, but it’s that it was that striking moment where I realized I am no longer cool. And 49 years of age, my cool and, and I could be up there giving, I could be like the Oprah like giving every kid a bike. They wouldn’t care. I’m still not cool. And we do give out a lot of bikes for various things. You put a BMX athlete in front of kids and these kids see themselves. They hear the stories of these athletes starting to ride and young age and sticking with it and overcoming all of their obstacles and injuries that resonate with these kids. And what I found in the more I started learning about our athletes within the sport is every writer, every athlete has a story. And I was so fortunate. When I started in this, I started asking people if I’m going to latch my wagon to one athlete, who should it be? And universally, everyone said, Donnie Robinson, Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins, it’s got to be Donnie Robinson. So I meet this guy, this Donnie Robinson guy, and he’s an Olympic medalist. 2008 Olympic bronze medalist. 2009 UCI World Champion, multi-time world champion, you know, BMX Hall of Fame. I mean, this is the guy and his accomplishments on the track have been great. But I’ll tell you what this guy has done since he retired. And what he’s done for the sport of BMX, and what he’s done for cycling is unbelievable. And so when I realized that Donnie had a message And his message was, how far can two wheels take you? And it was a metaphor for his bikes, taking them all around the world. And his bike was his thing. At five, five, he realized that football, basketball, soccer, all of those other things were not his thing. Cycling was his thing. And I was like, we’re on to something. So Johnny’s message was, maybe hockey’s your thing, maybe cooking is your thing. Maybe acting is your thing. But how you find your thing is by trying new things. And it was really that partnership with Donnie that helped me understand this, and seeing the way they react to him versus the way they reacted to me. And as I started going out and learning more about our athletes and our stories, I started expanding our stable of speakers. And I’ll tell you about going out to schools now. We have a couple of dozen athletes that do it. And every message is different. But the reaction from the kids is all the same. It’s truly incredible. And so These motivational stories, you know, the stories on failure. They’re stories on equality. There’s a variety of different stories. And we have someone speaking in a school somewhere in the country at least once a week. And before every one of our 30 plus nationals across the country. We’re going into schools and speaking. That’s awesome. Nobody was talking to me back in the day, but this, I’m really glad to hear you say this. And I think it’s super important. These kids that age. They need somebody to inspire them. And I think BMX is attainable. It’s a bicycle like you said, you don’t have to be six, one at 13 years of age to be on the basketball team. There’s not that pressure. So I love it. You’ve got these guys going out there. These folks. Talk to me a little bit about how a local bike retailer can engage with the foundation and the work that you guys are doing at the school level. Is there an opportunity for them to sponsor How do they lend a hand? How do they get involved and have a translate to these families and these kids coming to their business You know, this is a tough one for me because I’ve seen the best and worst of the cycling industry as a result of reaching out to bike shops. And you know, I think it’s important to be clear and honest with this. You know, I hold sent Facebook messages to shops, asking them to get involved and some of them just haven’t responded but worse. I’ve had others that flat out told me you know what, this isn’t for them and it’s not their target market. And yeah, it just sucks the wind out of my sails. But at the same time, you look at Ben’s Bikes down in Tucson, or the Bicycle Shack in Arvada, Colorado. There are two examples of people that I could call right now and say, Hey, can you help me with this? And they’re in they ask the question. All right, tell me more about it. And then they asked, How do I get involved? And then once they started seeing it, and once they started seeing the love and passion these kids had for cycling, they just got it and what I realized is there’s a correlation. Both of these people are successful in their shops, as a result, Some other things, but I think they just did it all the way around. Right? And so yeah, I can tell you that going back to our STEM program, I get a lot of jokes because I have been able to negotiate that we ship bikes on assembling to schools and allow kids to assemble them, and then write them. And people are like good watches. So you know, the bikes are shipped directly to the schools in the STEM program, the kids assemble the bikes, and then the kids learn to ride those bikes. And they’re like, how does that happen? Well, we were able to work it out the same response we get when we have kids that have never ridden a bike before, how they’re able to ride, and a BMX track. And sure there’s some risk involved. But the reason I say that is the bikes go through a safety check and that STEM program, but your bike dealer and you want to get involved. It starts right there. And then they have so many questions. And one of the biggest questions I get is that someone will take a picture with their cell phone is what is this and it’s a chain breaker in their toolset. They’re like, what is this? It looks like a whip. What is this? You know, and they don’t know what it is. And they want to know what it does and how to use it. And there’s only so much that we can handle from a national level. At some point, we need some people on the local level that want to be involved. And the schools would love some way to have someone come in and talk about their own cycling experiences, and how they got involved with like you were talking about with Mercedes and project bike tech and her group and how those kids get involved or how their work today can lead into a career within cycling. And so there’s a variety of ways to get involved. I mentioned judges for the track modeling program. I mentioned donating bikes. The thing is, is all I’m really asking people for in this is their time, I think that it’s time and recognizing the value of this customer for the long haul because if they get up in front of a couple of hundred kids each year, even if 10 of them become hooked on cycling. Guess who’s going to be buying a mountain bike when they’re 15 And they’re racing in Nikah, or they’re just passionate about they go ride with their dad or the mom or whatever. That’s what we’re trying to get across. It’s a BMX bike, it’s a 200 $250 bike. It’s not a huge margin generator for retail. But down the road, that customer who started off in your store is a BMX, or he or she could very easily become an enthusiast mountain bike, or maybe even a road cyclist, or, you know, who knows, but we’ve got to start somewhere. And there’s a long tail here that I think retailers need to recognize. It’s more of an investment. And it’s an investment in time at this point. 

Mike Duvarney  35:35

So I heard this from a retailer and I’m going to repeat it. Two people walked into the shop. The guy walks in, by himself that wants to buy a $3,000 road bike, or guy walks in with this kid that wants to buy a $500 BMX bike, who are you going to help? And I thought for sure, he was going to say the road bike guy and he says, BMX and he says, I’ll tell you why. Number one, I’m going to have that customer Life. And the people in the sport are constantly upgrading their components, their racing flight, and they’re going to grow as the sport grows. And as their love of cycling grows, they’re going to start collecting bikes, as we joked about at the beginning. And the second part was that the complete bike is called a complete bike because it’s complete. You may not see that guy for another five, 610 years. And I thought that was so dead-on. I know, it’s not everyone, but so many of these retailers. They do not think about that long tail on that lifelong customer.

Pat Hus  36:31

Yep, I agree. Just because we’re getting near the end here. A couple-three more questions here. I still want to come to you with it. So talk to me a little bit about how you guys are funded. How’s the foundation primarily funded? And you mentioned mongoose? Is there any other support? I don’t know if Wayne D is still involved in the cage, si. But are there other companies that are investing in your programs and in the foundation? What more can the industry be doing to help support your initiatives, Mongoose is a large funder of what we’re doing at this point, we are a foundation. Last year we secured over $100,000 in community grants. And this year we’re on track for 2020 to surpass that. So we’re funded a with a large donation from USA BMX, be from the BMX industry, see from grants and other donations, just like any other 501 c three. And then the second part of that you were asking about, what was the second part of your question?  I’m just wondering if the supplier community besides mongoose was, you know, taking an active role. And if there was any investment on their part.

Mike Duvarney  37:36

It’s coming around, I will tell you that the more that these programs get out there, the more some of these groups see what we’re doing and really begin to understand it. You’re starting to see more and more and I mean, I’m excited about that. 

Pat Hus  37:50

Good, good, good. Well, I think that you know, us doing this, these two podcasts, hopefully, this starts to filter out and starts to have an impact because I think the more you guys and JOHN mentioned that when he and I had our conversation how we’ve got this incredible inertia going behind us a BMX, and it’s not getting out to the market, the bike industry doesn’t realize To what extent the success you guys are having and that there’s growth. There’s a lot of BMX companies that when you talk to them, they’re kind of snickering and they’re going, Yeah, we’re killing it, we’re up 25%. I mean, it’s great. But that story needs to get broadcast a little bit louder to a bigger audience. So hopefully, these podcasts and the more and more what you guys are doing at the school level, it’s going to start to filter up to the companies that can make a real difference, and can help expand the programs that you guys have already laid the groundwork for. So I’m encouraged by that. But here’s where I just kind of wind things down and just have you speak to how do you see BMX fitting into the overall cycling ecosystem? You know, the whole big picture? Where does BMX fit into that? 

Mike Duvarney  38:58

this is a tough one because I think that there’s a lot of people that see it as a kid sport. And it’s something you do for a little while, right? And I get that. But really, it’s where the cycling industry starts. And there are a couple of things. Number one, I think listening to some of the cycling industry talks about getting more kids on bikes. And then the next thing out of their mouth is talking about trending paint schemes, or apps or all of that stuff. I mean, please, that is not going to get more kids on bikes, it’s not going to get more kids and bikes at all. And so they want to get more kids on bikes that look at the people that are getting kids on bikes. And it’s not just our organization, there’s a ton of grassroots organizations out there that are doing it. And the other thing that I’ll say about it, is you go through our photos, you go through our videos, we are hitting every single diversity, and every single gender point out there. We are seeing just as many girls on bikes, and just as many people of color on bikes, if not more, and so I think that overall every kid Starts their journey on a 20-inch bike at some point. And I’m not saying that every kid needs to race. I get that. You know, recently, we had a great meeting with Nika. And one of the things I learned about Nika is that you can be a member of their team of one of their cycling teams, but you don’t have to race and my head exploded. I was like that is so genius. The kid wants to feel a part of something bigger and better. And so why not be a part of a cycling team and you just go out you practice all the time, and maybe racing isn’t your thing. I am all about BMX. And I am all about BMX racing and the wonderful work that tons of people have done before. But it’s about time that we look at this in a different way. And so I think that when the industry realizes that this isn’t a kid sport, and it’s something that people do for a time, and they realize that this is really where that long-tail starts, I think that you’re going to see those people start to see growth in their business and a shift in their business and you look at some of the other programs we offer, like our BMX racing league, that’s another wonderful program actually founded by Donnie Robinson that we talked about earlier. manufacturers are starting to come around to these items and look at them and tilt their heads go the life and seen that before. How do I get involved in that? And so for me, we are a family sport. And what other sport can you get out there and ride with your kid, your kid races and then a little while later, the brother-sister races, mom races, and dad races? And I just love the fact that our sport, in general, recognizes people of all abilities, all races, all genders, all colors, and that every single person can race.

Pat Hus  41:37

Love it. Mike, you did a great job here. Man. I really appreciate everything you’ve shared with us today. I want to thank you for taking the time out of your valuable day. I know you’ve got a lot of things on your plate. So I really, really appreciate you taking the time to spend with everybody today. Is there any last comment you’d like to make to our audience just as a wrap-up? The very last thing I would say is that there’s a lot of great work going on. Right now within you cycling and people say all the time, well, I didn’t know about this, or I didn’t know about that. And I will tell you that there’s a group of folks getting together, forming a movement right now in the cycling coalition. And I’m sure you’ve heard about it. And you’ll hopefully have tat from people for bikes, the youth cycling initiative on in the future. But there are a lot of good minds, a lot of people that are putting a lot of time and energy into figuring out how do we get more kids on bikes? And how do we keep kids and people on bikes? And I think that the results of that as you’re starting to see that now come out, and the effects of that, but long term, I can’t wait to see the next five to 10 years. Hallelujah. My friend, I am a big fan. I’m on the board for People for Bikes in the Bicycle Product Suppliers Association. So I’ve been in those preliminary discussions about our youth initiatives and what we need to be doing to cultivating the next wave of cyclists. If we don’t, we run the risk of losing more and more of them and we all know how important Like is to a kid. It’s that first taste of freedom, right? I remember getting on my bike and riding to the store and we can’t let this generation this next generation of kids not have that experience in their life because they’re, they’re getting sucked into these digital tools that take him away from outside and getting outdoors and doing things as a family and you guys are really leading the charge. I applaud your efforts. Once again, I thank you for your time. And I’d like to just wrap up by saying thank you all for listening and taking part in this. And this is the bicycle retail radio, presented by the National Bicycle Dealer Association. Thanks

Rod Judd  43:40

for listening. This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

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E-Bikes and Building a Mission-Driven Bike Shop:  Karen Weiner and Brett Thurber opened a bike shop ten years ago in California’s Bay Area with four e-bikes on consignment, and no previous bike shop experience an asset that enabled them to bring fresh eyes and a creative approach to creating a mission-driven business model. They began by operating out of their apartment and delivering bikes by the trailer, and today, The New Wheel has two locations, an offsite service center, and 28 employees.

In this episode of Bicycle Retailer Radio, Karen Weiner talks about the challenges and benefits of being an e-bike only retailer and how they have built their business around the unique needs of the e-bike consumer. Karen also talks candidly about the tension between dealer and bike manufacturer needs and goals, and how The New Wheel leverages their service department to enhance the rider experience and build customer loyalty.

Please enjoy listening to E-Bikes and Building a Mission-Driven Bike Shop.

Support the show  (https://nbda.com/articles/donation-form-pg511.htm#!form/Donate)

The New Wheel’s MISSION

Our mission is not only to change how we get around but to bring good things and fresh ideas into the lives of people in our community and California as a whole.

We uphold our commitment to our customers through careful selection of technology, top-notch service, and an unwavering optimism for the future of transportation and electric bikes in the Bay Area.

Come visit our electric bike shops in San Francisco and Marin County.

Episode 20 – Bicycle Retail Radio

Tue, 8/18 10:41AM • 38:10

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bike, bike shops, bicycle, electric bikes, people, ebike, customers, margins, brett, industry, store, ride, wheel, sell, riders, buy, membership, service, product, suppliers

SPEAKERS

Chad Pickard, Rod Judd, David DeKeyser, Karen Weiner

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

David DeKeyser  00:16

Hello and welcome to another episode of bicycle retail radio. My name is David Dekeyser. I do retail consulting for the NBDA is the P2 Consult program. You can find more information on that program and all the other great benefits the NBDA provides its members on the NBDA website NBDA calm. Today’s guest is Karen Wiener, who along with her husband, Brett Thurber, owns and operates two e-bike only retail stores in the San Francisco Bay Area. And with that welcome card, and thanks for taking some time out from what I can guess is a busy day to join us.

Karen Weiner  00:54

Thanks, David. Nice to be here.

David DeKeyser  00:56

So most of the reason tailors that are going to be listening to this probably own and operate traditional retail bicycle stores where they’re selling a wide variety of different products. Can you kind of give us a history of your business? what spurred the idea to do an e-bike only store and kind of bring us up to the present day, just to give us some background and context. And first, I want to say you’ve been open for 10 years. So congratulations on that. Yeah. If you can kind of give us a little history of your business. That would be great.

Karen Weiner  01:33

Absolutely, yeah, this will be our 10th year, but where we started doesn’t look anything like where we are today. So Brett and I met at UC Berkeley, and he was studying history and I was studying anthropology. It was 2010. And you know, we were all it was, well, no, we’ve met before that but in 2010 when Brett graduated the company economy was essentially in shambles. And we decided, well, Brett became interested in the idea of electric bikes as transportation. He was a very utilitarian bicycle, let’s just get to school get back that’s about it. Had a, you know, specialized commuter bike, and I am originally from Denmark and have been back and forth a lot and used a bicycle heavily between high school and the end of college. And so I was also sort of a practical bicyclist. But the idea of electric bikes was sort of, you know, it was on the margins of things. There were students that we were talking to at Berkeley who had come back from war, and we’re using electric bikes to get around people who are handicapped. There was an article in The New York Times that talked about these bikes that they were using for vacations and tours in the Swiss Alps. And it sounded like magic. It sounded just unbelievable. And so Brett started to look for something similar here in the Bay Area, because all of a sudden, he just realized that it was such an obvious way to get around and wasn’t really able to find much. There were a couple of very small e-bike retailers and one bicycle store that carried the track ride plus bikes. And so the truck ride plus was really the first high-quality e-bike that Bret ever tried. And when he tried to be realized, man, this is unbelievable. Why is it not big news? So first, he tried to get a job with a regular bike shop specializing in electric bikes and nobody wanted to hire him because they thought that the market was too small. And so we opened a little e-bike shop out of our apartment, we had basically four bikes on consignment that were in our little one-bedroom apartment. And my dad and Brett built u bike-powered bike trailer. And he would go around to farmers’ markets and street fairs and try to get people to try electric bikes. And then if somebody bought one, he would deliver it to their house on this trailer. And so that was you know, about the first nine months or so. And then we ended up working with a friend who was opening a bicycle rental business for tourism in San Francisco and Brett had a small wall in that shop and helped start the shop and staff at in exchange for being able to have a sort of quasi brick and mortar space. And that’s when we realized that having a location was really important because you had customers who were making big investments. So at the time, the bikes we are selling were already over $3,000 which was a Big deal. So they were making major investments. And we realized how useful it was to have, you know, a mechanic on hand and to have a brick and mortar space that people could kind of experience the whole experience. And so I graduated that year, and we decided to open the new wheel in San Francisco. And we were for once lucky because of the economy because we were able to find a really sweet spot for a pretty good deal. Finally, and the landlord decided he would take the risk on leasing to a couple of 20 I guess we were 22. At the time note, we’re 23. So the landlord took a risk on us and we opened with about $50,000 and a lot of hard work, and we’ve been growing it from there. And so now we have two stores, an off-site service center. And we have I think today we’ve got 28 employees.

David DeKeyser  06:01

Wow. That’s a lot of employees to handle.

Karen Weiner  06:06

That’s a lot of employees. Yeah. But it’s a lot of bikes. So so we sell a lot of bikes. Everybody’s very busy. You know, we’re in a pretty, we don’t have much seasonality, so we stay busy all year long, and bikes if even in the rain, people are willing to ride the bikes more than they’re willing to ride regular bikes. So, you know, 27 full-time employees is not quite enough at this point, or 28. We’re still hiring.

David DeKeyser  06:35

How big is your store’s square footage twice?

Karen Weiner  06:39

small compared to most bicycle stores, they are about 1500 square feet each depends on how you measure them. We have outdoor space on both of them in both stores that we can move bikes in and out of basically between 1500 and 2000 square feet each. Okay. Is that enough space for you? Or would you? Does it seem like there’d be a lot of elbow-rubbing going on? Yeah, so there historically was a lot of elbow-rubbing going on. So we opened our first store with just 1000 square feet. And by the time we signed a lease for the downstairs area there, I think we were doing like, I want to say almost $2 million of business out of it out of 1000 square feet, and the amount of elbow-rubbing was obscene. It was really you have to like who you work with, and you have to be driven, you know, be really patient with each other in the Bay Area. You know, we have benefits like less weather fluctuation during the year, but we’ve got some pretty serious downside to and rent is one of those. And so we don’t really have any choice. We can’t afford a bigger space. And so it’s actually a really useful challenge for us. It’s challenged us to develop a model that’s really unlike most bike shops. And it challenges us to keep our inventory moving and to slim and you know, make tough decisions. So there are benefits and it’s difficult.

Chad Pickard  08:15

Your NBDA membership helps support bicycles, retail radio, go to nba.com to join or renew your membership today.

David DeKeyser  08:27

So the basic business model that you guys have out there is, Are you trying to appeal to a broad range of e-bike consumers, you’d mentioned kind of the practical cycling, who’s kind of your core consumer that’s coming into your stores.

Karen Weiner  08:44

Our customers, for the most part, are people who are riding to work or riding for some sort of, well, so historically, our customers were very, very practical. So in San Francisco, Most of our customers are commuters or take their kids to school. There’s very little San Francisco City Life is extremely pragmatic and busy. And so you know, riding a bike is the fastest, most affordable way to get around the city. And so anybody who’s kind of thinking outside the box is our customer, essentially. So we’ve got you to know, everybody from babysitters to people who are executives to retired people to high school students to buy bikes from us

David DeKeyser  09:37

is primarily a transportation-based purchase.

Karen Weiner  09:42

Yeah, it’s a heavy transportation base. Now in our store and Larkspur. There are a lot more leaders. There’s a history of mountain biking and recreational bicycling both road and mountain that is much stronger. So we cater to a lot of people who ride by From Marin to San Francisco, you can ride across the Golden Gate Bridge. And if you ride by bike, you save about $7 per day, just on the toll that doesn’t include, you know, parking downtown or whatever. So there’s a lot of people who ride in. But then there are, you know, we have, I would say, an older demographic in Marin. Often, people who have spent their lives on bicycles and a bike have the opportunity to stay on a bicycle. And, you know, one thing that we really didn’t, weren’t involved with and didn’t see coming. Well, we saw it coming, but we, it wasn’t our race on the edge. It wasn’t our The reason for being originally is a cargo bicycle. So, you know, an electric cargo bike is about, I don’t know, hundreds of times more useful than a non-electric cargo bike, especially in a hilly place. That’s become a major part of our business after the launch of, you know, mid-drive motors by Bosch about five years ago.

David DeKeyser  10:59

So you’re I was looking at your website, which is absolutely beautiful. And I think that anybody that’s selling e-bikes should probably spend a little time on your site, it would be helpful for them to understand how you’re presenting the product. One thing that I noticed is obviously, your stores have the fairly small square footage, you carry a lot of brands, I’m assuming that you have a very kind of curated selection from each brand. Mm-hmm. Is that hard work to deal with your vendors at all Do you ever have where they would like more floor space? Or how have you kind of navigated those waters?

Karen Weiner  11:37

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that there is well there are a couple of things that I want to touch on from what you said, right? The first thing if you do look at our website, look at it from the perspective of understanding that what we’re doing what our aim is, is not to present product, it’s to present our service. So part of our Service is the product that we carry. But that’s just part of it. And so we’re qualifying customers, as new wheel customers or not new wheel customers through our website. And that’s been a major part of our existence since before, you know since we opened. So for I think for years, we’d invested more in our websites, and we had invested in our storefronts. So that’s just sort of a little background because it’s been a very, very useful tool to make sure that the people who are coming into our store are the right people or people who are going to be interested in the services that we have to offer. And that sort of dovetails into your question about I think the relationships that we have with our vendors. Our model is, again, because we have the challenge of our natural environment, which is super hilly, super bumpy, super salt, watery, heavy use e-bike riding We simply can’t sell some types of electric bikes, I mean, customers would be really disappointed with the performance. And so we’ve always come from the perspective that our job was to curate the best bicycles for an experience here in the Bay Area. And I think, and our perspective in terms of how we work with our vendors, with our vendor partners, is that we need them to succeed and they need us to succeed. So we try to be in really close contact with them, we’re usually talking about a product, you know, way ahead of when it’s actually going to be launching so that they can have a sense of what you know what our feedback is, what our interests are, what problems are that we’ve had with a current product that we would like to see fixed on new product and if we do see that fixed, how many units we think will sell. And because we’re focused, we’re able to move quite a few units of every bike that we sell what you Don’t see on our website is that unlike most bike shops, our model is to have inside our stores, all of our bikes, our demo bikes, you don’t actually see hardly any stock bikes at all. So when people walk in, they can touch and ride and rent and kind of experience every bike that’s on the floor. And then we have a warehouse where we stock new bikes. And when you choose what bike you want, we deliver a brand new bike. And so that helps us manage floor space. And it helps us really, you know, people the test ride is the magic sauce, the secret sauce, and e-bike sales. And generally speaking, people want to buy what they’ve tried. And so you know, it’s a matter of working with suppliers long term, helping them forecast, making adjustments as needed. And, you know, working to be good partners. I’m so amazed. Seems to me in the Bike industry, there’s a lot of tension between retailers and suppliers. And of course, there are moments of total tension at the new wheel between our suppliers and ourselves as well. But it seems to me that nobody wins if anybody loses. And so these sorts of unequal power dynamics between brands and retailers, really I understand the legacy they come from but they don’t serve anyone very well going forward.

David DeKeyser  15:29

That was very well put the kind of the nuts and bolts of your business then I’m assuming with the very high cost of living, the high cost of your retail space, you also have a warehouse. The margins on e-bike product have been it’s a definitely a conversation in the traditional bike shop world. Are they enough? Are they not enough? They’re obviously higher dollar sales. Where do you stand on you have such a really a different model than the traditional bike shop? By far? What kind of margins Do you like to see? And are you able to get those?

Karen Weiner  16:11

So the new wheel started selling e-bikes and working with an e-bike. importers and distributors quite a while before. I would say before the major brands got into it at all. And I think that you know, a lot of bike shops aren’t that sure are serious about e-bikes yet. And I would argue that a lot of the major brands aren’t that short or serious about e-bikes yet either and that’s reflected in the programs and in the, you know, manufacturing and stocking decisions that are made, and so, you know, very succinctly 32% isn’t even close to enough to be able to To sell and support a rider on an E-bike for any amount of time. And I think that you know, I think it’s an unfortunate thing that, you know, regular programs are proposing margin like that I think some start as low as 28% that I’ve seen because e-bikes have the potential to completely revolutionize the bicycle industry. But at a 28% margin, it’s just not gonna happen. You know, you can’t have the staff on hand to know the product well enough. You can’t have the expertise to support the customer well enough. The customer is quite well educated because most of them have done research online. There are a lot of players online, they’re not all bicycle industry players. And there’s a lot of garbage online and so a lot of our job in the store is to re-educate riders so that they make a purchase that’s going to be you know, joyful and sustainable and profitable for the store. I don’t know if I answered your question, David.

David DeKeyser  18:07

Yes. I don’t think that you gave me the number that you love.

Karen Weiner  18:12

Basically, yeah, I think the lowest we’ve ever gone is 35%. That’s your margin. And we make up to, you know, 40 or 42%, depending on how we negotiate and what kind of preseason we’ve written and how we’re taking bikes and how we’re paying for bikes. So that’s our range.

David DeKeyser  18:35

The reason that I’m so interested in that is, I think, kind of my own background, but then right now, for kind of your traditional bike shop e-bikes are obviously what is kind of the first thing that comes out of everybody’s mouth if we start talking about what’s hot, or what’s happening or what’s coming in the future. But then retailers are struggling with the idea of the margins being so low and that there’s all of this, you know, there Higher dollar sales. So they, it’s okay that they’re lower margins. And that’s not really necessarily the case. And you said it so well, that they require a much higher level of knowledge from the salesperson. They require much more mechanical work as they kind of go through the lifecycle of that product. And that all is going to require a little higher margin in order to make everybody happy. So that’s

Karen Weiner  19:29

kind of Yeah, the customer the writer comes from a different perspective like the writer is probably most often they’re buying the most expensive bike they’ve ever bought in their life. They’re understanding it as equivalent to any you know, high dollar item that you would buy. And so they have expectations about the performance of the bike and the warranty on the bike. And there’s a lot of education that goes along with you know, the bike industry does stuff like they put crap He breaks the crappy disc pads on a bike and an E-bike rider can blow through those pads and 200 miles. Now, how do you explain to someone who just spent 40 $500 on a bike, that they have to spend $250 on brake and rotor upgrades, you know, 30 days after they buy their bike, that sort of thing is, like, just it’s a real challenge for the shop, and for the customer and for the industry as a whole like they’re shooting themselves in the foot. So my belief is that there are way too much building bikes for price points instead of building bikes that have value and showing their value through performance. And that’s just the sad state of affairs that the bike industry is in.

David DeKeyser  20:51

Well, hopefully, somebody will come. Everybody’s trying to hit that magical price point. And I think that That’s where a lot of that product development goes. And then it’s the things that you can’t see the brake pads that end up becoming a cost-saving, but then it turns into an upsetting situation, not too far down the road.

Karen Weiner  21:17

So right and it’s not only brake pads, it’s you know, the quality of the wheels, the brake pads, the, you know, drive, train all the stuff that you think you can get away with, you can’t get away with on e-bikes because if you want to keep these people on e-bikes and buying, you know, quality, proper product instead of rad power, or, you know, discount Chinese stuff, you’re gonna have to give a better rider experience and those brands are doing and you have to show yourselves to be bicycle experts. And I think too often you know, the bike industry does not show themselves as being bicycle experts to their customers.

David DeKeyser  22:00

As far as labor goes and keeping the bikes on the road, do you do anything differently than the traditional bike shop? You know, you get a 30 day warranty one year on the parts and a lifetime on the frame. And then basically, you can come back and get a tune-up if you’d like. Do you offer more of a labor or service package to kind of keep them on the road? Do you do anything of that sort?

Karen Weiner  22:24

Yeah, absolutely. So all of the bikes we sell come with a minimum two-year warranty. So that’s one of the first questions we ask a supplier when we begin negotiations with them, we just won’t carry anything that has under a two-year warranty. So the supplier most often or the supplier always covers the cost of parts replacement. Increasingly, we’re asking suppliers to cover labor, especially if there’s any sort of persistent repetition in the problems that we’re seeing. And we cover labor otherwise, A customer who purchases and he buys from us does not ever walk out having to pay for any part of a warranty. The other thing that we do is we offer what’s called a service member. So one of the important ways of keeping people on electric bikes and keeping people excited about electric bikes is sort of reframing for them what their service expectations need to be about bicycling and bikes generally, you know, in whatever way, you know, I never worked in a bicycle shop before opening new wheels. I only know what I know through personal experience in bike shops and talking to a lot of people over the last 10 years but you know, bicycle service expertise has been devalued to a really massive extent in the last many years and so what we do is we try to give some value back to the bike mechanic and to the shop. Because we know that that’s an area where we can really compete and where we really stand the chance to improving the rider’s experience on their bikes. So we sell service memberships, which are available only to customers who buy bikes from us. And that’s an annual package that covers tuneup labor, brake pad installation, tire installation, to a replacement, that sort of thing. And so those are reoccurring memberships of either 149 or 249. They actually also include we have a partnership with a roadside assistance company. And so anybody who buys one of our memberships gets roadside assistance for their e-bike. And so they have a problem. They can call a number and essentially a cab or a tow truck comes and picks up their bike and brings it to us. And so that is, you know, another one of the services that are I think, pretty well, it’s wonderful. I think we have we’ve got tons of customers who Come get service with us every year because we’re literally in touch with them saying hey, you paid for the service, bring your bike in. We’ll take it for three days turnaround, you know, a great tune-up and our goal are to have the bike as good as new back to them at the end of that and that makes people feel really good about riding their bikes.

David DeKeyser  25:18

So I’m assuming you have a fairly good sell through then on those memberships.

Karen Weiner  25:23

Yeah, we do. Okay.

Chad Pickard  25:27

NBDA is the newest program is called rides. It will increase your store revenue and customer loyalty. It’s exclusive to NBDA members, go to nbda.com and join today.

David DeKeyser  25:42

So there’s obviously we’ve talked about the differences between traditional, some of the differences between traditional bike shops and the new wheel and how it relates to e-bike sales with your kind of greenness, if you will, coming into the bicycle industry. Do you feel that that was much more of an asset than it was a liability, not knowing how you were supposed to do things in parentheses and kind of some of the institutionalized issues that we seem to have? Do you feel that that was basically an asset that you came into this fresh?

Karen Weiner  26:17

Yeah, I guess so. Ah,

David DeKeyser  26:20

because you’re doing things so differently. Yeah. I mean, it allows us to be creative, right? It allows us to think about this as a business instead of just like a bike shop, like a mission-driven business that has an important reason for being and that is motivated by things that are bigger than just like, I don’t know, we’re motivated by bigger picture stuff. And so I mean, I’m mostly thankful that we had the stroke of luck to start when we started, and that we were in our 20s and had tons And tons of energy. I mean, Brett and I worked, you know, nonstop, no vacations, seven days a week 10 to 12 hours a day for basically five and a half, six years. And I certainly couldn’t do that now and I’m just in my mid-30s, you know, but that’s what allowed us to open with a real a pretty small, initial investment. And just keep things rolling. Keep things tight, learn a lot, and keep our mind open. I certainly Yeah, I mean, sorry, I’m not being very succinct. But yes, it was a huge benefit not to know what we’re doing. You said something in there that I thought was pretty funny about You started it and we’re trying to run it like a business, not just a bike shop.

Karen Weiner  27:48

Yeah, I mean, no, I think that’s

David DeKeyser  27:51

in that statement.

Karen Weiner  27:53

I’ve had the opportunity now to work with a lot of bike shops that trim there’s a real set of cultural assumptions about running a bicycle shop. And there’s a real dynamic that has been cultivated between suppliers and retailers and riders, and between the kind of the past and the present and the future. And you know, I think that needs to be, we need to shake it up because it’s not very functional. It’s not a fun way of doing business. And fundamentally, like if you can’t pay your mechanics, a decent living wage, or you can’t have salespeople who know what they’re talking about, or able to really support riders, I think there’s a problem with the business model. Right? Well, hopefully, but there’s also this like a huge benefit. I mean, the bicycle industry is unlike really any other industry right now. Because we still have our shops, you know, and there’s still a reason for us to exist, which is service and local stores. progress in the bike industry is something that I think we all need to get much more serious about talking about. Excellent.

David DeKeyser  29:07

So as we kind of start to wind this down, one of the things that you had mentioned was that you have a bigger purpose for your business or that you feel a bigger purpose to it all. And can you kind of touch on what that means to you a little bit? And what the value that you feel that you’re adding to not just your customers, but to your community?

Karen Weiner  29:28

Um, yeah, I mean, so it’s pretty straightforward. We just have an environmental reason for existing. Any trip that you choose to take my bike or a bike rather than by car actually has a pretty profound impact on the environment. And so what e-bikes do for a landscape like the Bay Area is they make bicycling fun, easy and convenient, just like they are in Amsterdam or Copenhagen. again. So that is extremely motivating, especially because when you get people set up with the right bike, and you service that bike well and you treat your riders and your customers, well, you really stand the chance to see people rack up a lot of miles on their bikes. So it’s not unusual for our customers to put, you know, anywhere from between one and 5000 miles on their bikes per year. That’s what most people put on their bikes. And I like to say we’ve got the benefit of the odometer. Like most bike shops don’t know how many miles their customers put on their bikes. They know whether their chain is worn out or their tires are worn out. But you know, there are many factors that can relate to that. So we really get to see the impact that we’re having every day. So that’s the big picture. It’s really about changing the way people move, giving opportunities here in the United States. To make real change in something that is as entrenched as car culture as because in cities, especially riding an E-bike is just way better than riding a car.

David DeKeyser  31:15

And I’m assuming there are some cost benefits as well. I don’t live in San Francisco, but I think that owning a car and paying to park it and all the things that go along with that are much more expensive than owning an E-bike.

Karen Weiner  31:27

Yeah, there are costs, benefits, health benefits, you know, consumption benefits, stress benefits. I mean, that car is really expensive in San Francisco. There’s also bad traffic, bad parking, you’re, you know, going to get a parking ticket every now and then that sort of thing. But I kind of thing that’s only like a small, very easy to access part of it. Once people start riding bikes, you know, any bike shop, the person who listens to this podcast will understand that you know, bikes change lives. And if you are really serious about e-bikes, and you are really serious about getting people on them and helping them use them a lot, you’re just seeing a lot more lives change. And that is very motivating and very fun.

David DeKeyser  32:14

Okay, I have a curveball for you, do you? How do I put this if I want to kind of ask you where you see the E-bike, going, not just for a New Wheel, but for the bicycle industry. One of the things that I’m the most fascinated about your business is that you obviously have built interoperating very good business based just on e-bikes. And the bicycle retailers are just looking at the E-bike. There’s some that have done great with them, but many are just starting to look at those bikes and get into them. What number one, do you feel that there’s any threat to an E-bike only business, and have you ever considered doing traditional bikes, or is that just Something that would not happen. And in the next three to five years, do you see any really major changes? This is a loaded question and how your business is going. As it relates to, I guess, competition in parentheses with the traditional bicycle shops that may become more e-bike oriented.

Karen Weiner  33:22

I think two things. I don’t think the new wheel will ever carry regular bicycles. I think that one of the strategic mistakes that a lot of bike shops make and that a lot of bike manufacturers make is kind of thinking that you want to be everything to everybody. And I think that’s just a recipe for disaster. So we won’t be doing that. Do I think that the arrival of e-bikes in regular bike shops poses a threat to the new we’ll know I think that it poses an opportunity to buy shops, it also poses a number of real challenges to bike shops? And it poses the opportunity for the industry to do better. And for the new wheel to do better, the industry needs to do better, there need to be more bikes sold more ridership, more infrastructure, this needs to be a bigger topic in more places. So I hope that in three to five years, we’re talking about, you know, federal rebates for people who choose to purchase e-bikes instead of an electric car, I hope that we’re talking about, you know, massive infrastructure increases, which will help a huge number of new people get on to e-bikes. And frankly, the new wheeled can’t, can’t support a change like that in the Bay Area. by ourselves, we would need a lot more players and a lot of bike shops to get into this. But unfortunately, I don’t think that’s really how The bike industry is thinking about it. And that’s why you see those lousy margins. And the sort of this is just another part of your lineup so that you can service and serve the needs of you know, the baby boomer who walks in your store who wants to step through a bike or wants to keep riding a mountain bike or whatever. I don’t think that our industry is thinking in very visionary terms as a general rule. And so, you know, I hope that if it will have any impact, it’s to try to help people getting, you know, to help us all think in bigger ways. So you don’t have to think in the same big way. But let’s think big picture. Let’s think about what success looks like. And stop being so worried about, you know, the competition of your neighbor, or the success or failure of your neighbor. Really, we all need to find more success, and that needs to be the goal.

David DeKeyser  35:54

That’s a super refreshing answer. That was very good. Is there anything that you would like to kind of go out on in our conversation, I threw up really bad curveball questions. I apologize.

Karen Weiner  36:05

I mean, the one ad I would make there, though, is that, you know, we are already seeing competition from a little bit from bike shops a lot from online discounting brands, and also just this new micro-mobility player. So Uber and Lyft. And, you know, electric scooters and solo wheels and all this stuff. These are all essentially forms of competition. I think e-bikes are the best. for a lot of reasons. I think the bicycle platform is the best. But competition is a good competition just makes you work harder and be smarter and think bigger. So I’m very motivated by the competition.

David DeKeyser  36:48

Awesome. What is your website address? Its NewWheel.com?

Karen Weiner  36:53

No, it’s www.newwheel.net.

David DeKeyser  36:57

Okay, anybody that’s listening, I think it would be great if they checked out your website I thought that it was so unique obviously to the bicycle world, the way that it kind of navigated I really was impressed by it. As you said, it’s you’re not necessarily selling the product you were qualifying customers. And that makes much more sense when you explain that to me after I had played around in there for a little while. But, Karen, this was super fun. I wish we could keep going because I have so many more questions that I would love to ask you, but we’re pretty much out of time. But I super appreciate you coming on today. This was a lot of fun.

Karen Weiner  37:37

Thanks for having me. And yeah, let’s keep the conversation going. We all gotta, you know, grow this pie and float this boat a little bit higher. 

Rod Judd  37:45

This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership, and member benefits, join us @ NBDA.com

David DeKeyser and his wife Rebecca Cleveland owned and operated The Bike Hub in De Pere, Wisconsin, for nearly 18 years. In 2018, they sold the business and real estate to another retailer based in a nearby community. David now writes the Positive Spin series on Bicycle Retailer and Industry News and he writes articles for the NBDA’s blog, Outspokin’. David also provides business consulting through the NBDA’s P2 Consult Program.

The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

The post E-Bikes and Building a Mission-Driven Bike Shop appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Want to learn how to sell eBikes from a fellow retailer? We are very excited to bring you this webinar from our friends at Wheel & Sprocket! It isn’t often that you get someone to tell you all of their secrets for success, but we talked them into it. You can expect to learn about the e-bike customer, understanding e-bike basics, and sales techniques. They will also address frequent questions they get from their customers about e-bikes.

Support the show. (https://nbda.com/articles/donation-form-pg511.htm#!form/Donate)

Wheel & Sprocket- Est 1973. Hales Corners, WI.

Wheel & Sprocket started as a small shop in Hales Corners, WI, by passionate people that believed that bikes make life better.

Through hard work and humble beginnings, Wheel & Sprocket grew throughout the years because we care about people, and want to help them find their love for bikes.

We all have our different varieties of bikes we enjoy, but we all do it for that feeling you get after going on a great bike ride.

It’s our job to make sure that you have a fun, easy, and fair experience here at Wheel & Sprocket. We don’t sell it if we don’t like riding with it, and we work hard to earn your trust and offer you great suggestions.

Through its years of persistence and continued improvement, Wheel & Sprocket has grown to 9 stores in our 45 years of being your local bike shop. We are proudly committed to the communities we serve and are always here to help you ENJOY YOUR RIDE.

Our History

Founded in 1973 in Hales Corners, Wisconsin, Wheel & Sprocket began as a small, local bike shop with big dreams. Chris Kegel started out as a bicycle mechanic just two weeks after the store first opened. Since then, he has worked in every position in the company, from the bottom up. Chris eventually became a partner in the business, and by 1989, he became the sole owner and president.

After 44 years of growing Wheel & Sprocket to be one of the most successful bike shops in the country, Chris Kegel passed away but left behind quite a legacy.

The Bike Shop Today

Today, our Wheel & Sprocket brand has extended its reach to four stores in the Metro-Milwaukee area, two in the Fox Valley, one in Middleton, and two in the Chicago, IL, suburbs of Evanston and Oak Park.

Even after 45 years, Wheel & Sprocket is family owned and operated by those who have a passion for cycling. Chris’ four kids are still involved in the business. Noel Kegel and Amelia Kegel are now the co-owners of Wheel & Sprocket and have a goal to make their dad proud. Wheel & Sprocket continues to grow and serve its cycling communities.

We believe that bikes make the world a better place, and are here to make the world a better place for bikes.

The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

The post How to Sell eBikes – Hosted by Wheel & Sprocket appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

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Dan Thornton

Tue, 8/18 10:46AM • 41:30

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bikes, stores, p2, people, day, business, bicycle, run, orders, retail, bmx, employees, retailers, showroom, week, industry, road bikes, trails, numbers, years

SPEAKERS

Dan Thornton, Rod Judd, David DeKeyser, Kent Cranford

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

David DeKeyser  00:16

Hello and welcome to another episode of bicycle retail radio. My name is David DeKeyser and I do retail consulting for the NBDA is P2 Consult program. You can find more information on that program and all the other great benefits the NBDA provides on the NBDA website NBDA calm. Today’s guest is Dan Thornton on our Free Flight Bikes with locations in Marietta, Sandy Springs, East Cobb, Georgia starting 42 years ago as a skateboard shop. preflight has evolved tremendously over the years. And with that, thank you, Dan, for taking the time to join us today.

Dan Thornton  00:54

Oh, You’re quite welcome. Happy to be here.

David DeKeyser  00:57

First off, 42 years starting to skateboard shop. Can you kind of walk us through your business’s bio a little bit through the years and at the end of that finish up with where you stand day-to-day in the business?

Dan Thornton  01:12

Yeah, 42 years condensed down in a few minutes isn’t easy, but I’ll give it a shot here. We, being my father myself, opened up a skateboard shop in 1977. And did quite well actually for about a year year and a half we thought things were just going to keep going. And in 1978 things took a turn for the worse in that industry. It seemed that liability insurances skate parks and hindsight now you look back and skateboards are very, very cyclical through generations of kids. They come they go, they’re big. They’re small parts of our sporting activities. So we made the decision and 78 kinds of looked around and said, what’s next? And what do we do now that we have a retail storefront? We know enough about retail to be dangerous. What do we do and At that time, BMX was booming? The BMX scene was happening. tracks were popping up everywhere. teams were traveling and nationals were happening through both ABA and NBA. So we kind of jumped in with both feet, we bought a little tiny bike shop in our hometown that had closed that had you know, I think it was about $8,000 in inventory. We moved to a little better area that was the better-suited showroom for bicycles and BMX continued with skateboards for a while, but that didn’t last very long as BMX took over quickly. When the BMX scene hit, we were doing national mail order, we set up a mail-order catalog that we actually hand printed in the store with a little pictograph machine, mimeograph machine, whatever you call it, ran catalogs, mailed them out and put ads in the back of BMX action magazine or BMX plus back then and just really, it just took off on us and we didn’t really know what It hit us and it ran hard for quite some time we had a national team that traveled we had mailorder going in a retail showroom that was kind of the hotspot for BMX, in our marketplace. And just like anything, you know, it’s cyclical to that it had its run road bikes, we had a gentleman that ran the Eastpointe velodrome that came to me and said, Hey, you guys need to be sunken, some road bikes, it’s the next thing coming. And we got into road bikes. And we sold rode bikes pretty hard for quite some time and was doing quite well with road bikes. And then the next thing the mountain bike wave and the mountain bike scene hit and we were there. So we really just transition from product to product, always keeping what we started with, and that’s BMX and family bikes. So it’s a big part of our business today. We have three stores now my dad through my mom, she worked for IBM and she was transferred in 1982. And at that time, he came to me and said, What do you want to do? You know, we can try to sell it. There’s probably not much here to sell. We could liquidate, you could do whatever it is you want to do or You could continue to run it and pay me back my investment over time and we’ll see how it works. At that time, my wife 42 years as well, we looked at each other and said, let’s do this, let’s make it work. And she went to school and learn to do books and I went to the school of hard knocks and dug into the stores. So I never had a formal education, everything has been from high school on and just school of hard knocks. And the rest is somewhat history. We now have three stores and 30 plus employees that are top of season 26 at the low point of the season, so it’s been very, very good for our family. We’ve been rewarded greatly and trying times today for sure. It’s a different type of stress from other times we’ve seen in this industry that we’re dealing with today with the COVID issues and shut down and the bicycle rebirth or boom if you want to call it whatever so

David DeKeyser  04:50

Yeah, a personal story there is that in the 80s I was really into BMX and I remember the free flight and Name and the catalog showing up in my mailbox as a teenager probably in 1984 1985. So whenever I would see your name pop up, the name of the stores pop up over the years that always kind of had a fond memory for me because that was a nice time I think in my life. So it’s kind of neat how you’ve transitioned so much over the years. Nowadays, in your stores, what brands are you selling what’s kind of paint a picture of what your retail business looks like today.

Dan Thornton  05:31

We’re one of the top 50 TREK dealers and we do a primary TREK business. We also do very, very well. We’re one of the largest Santa Cruz dealers in the southeast. So those are our two primaries. We obviously like everybody to do a couple of specials of this and that custom frames in the roadside, but that’s our primary too. So we’re primarily a TREK retailer. 

David DeKeyser  05:53

With a Santa Cruz component there. Obviously, you must have some mountain bike trails or very good mountain bike trails. I’m assuming with In striking distance of some of the stores, 

Dan Thornton  06:03

Blankets Creek is about five miles from our largest location, our oldest and largest location. And the blink Creek trailhead is managed and run by Sorba which is the southern offroad bicycle Association. And it was one of their very early trails when they went into developing clubs in the region. So they have both blankets Creek, rope mill and Altoona Creek are all run by SORBA And then so Creek it’s closest to our other two stores. We’re in a hotbed of some of the top trails in the eastern region. It’s without question blankets Creek is one of the most visited trails pops up on a bunch of top trails and in mountain biking for us.

David DeKeyser  06:42

Do you have some recreational paths or rail trails or anything like that near any of your stores?

Dan Thornton  06:48

We did? Well, I say we’re kind of surrounded by what’s growing. It’s slow. As everyone knows, money’s the issue. In almost every case, there’s quite a bit of political will to do it. There’s not enough resources from a financial standpoint to do what they want to do, but yes, there are recreational paths trails, the silver comet trail runs from Summerlin, which is really where a skateboard shop started. It goes all the way to Birmingham, Alabama, it’s 60 miles of old railroad tracks that were pulled up, turned into a really nice dual-direction bikeway that’s just hugely popular, especially as you get closer towards Atlanta in the city in Smyrna. So yeah, we have Roseville there’s a Greenway and then there’s paths and trails and it’s been quite a movement over the last say 20 years quite a change. But a long way to go here in Georgia, that’s for sure.

David DeKeyser  07:36

How big are your stores,

Dan Thornton  07:38

our largest stores 7500 square feet. We like to call it our mothership. If we have large bulk orders come in, that’s where they come in. And then we have weekly distribution to our other stores via transfer. The other two stores one is a two-story building, which we purchased about 15 years ago, and that’s right at just under 5000 square foot freestanding building and then last Or most recent opening a six years old. And that’s in the city of Sandy Springs in the shopping center, and it’s 4300. So all 43 or greater

David DeKeyser  08:11

is three of the most stores that you’ve ever had. Have you had more than that? Kind of how did you arrive at that number of stores in your current locations?

Dan Thornton  08:20

That’s a good one for very, very short periods of time. We had four but it was typically when we tried to a location that didn’t work. We may have been there five years, tried to make it happen, couldn’t make it happen. And while we were closing it, we would turn around and begin opening a store in another area to give it a shot. See if we can make that we’ve done and this is definitely our three. It’s very interesting when you look at stores one’s easy. I mean, you know, hindsight is always 2020 and I some days I dream of a 20,000 square foot one single store that does it all has it all. Because you know when you take your staff and you have an amazing staff At one and you start taking your best of staff to go run another one, you just basically end up with three stores with great staff, but not always the best of staff and you kind of lose a little control and it takes several years to really get that. It’s not near as easy as it looks on the outside to open multiple.

Kent Cranford  09:20

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David DeKeyser  09:40

Are you guys pretty comfortable now with where you’re at? Or do you have plans if you saw the right location, the right spot? Would you move into that? Or have you settled into what the business is at this point?

Dan Thornton  09:53

I’ve looked at that we looked at it. There are times we feel like we’re a little bit too small to be big and we’re too big to be small and we feel like We’re kind of caught in the middle, there’s no doubt there are economies of scale that can be gained by multiple locations. The problem is having very tight controls on those. And it’s not easy. It’s very, very hard regardless of what database, what systems, what point of sale you use, the amount of management and control of that is the hardest part. And that’s the downside to multiple locations. So I respect those guys. You know, when you see people with 1520 3040 locations, it’s just amazing that they’re able to do that and maintain a high-quality level of service to the customer. Do you think that just comes down to they have such a solid operational handbook in a way of, you know, they can just pop open the door and they’re ready to roll? Yeah, you know, I that in the discipline. I think the real thing there is discipline and oversight management. It’s extremely hard to create a perfect customer experience. And as you move Apply, that just gets harder, there’s no doubt in my mind that that becomes harder and harder. The dream of perfect service for every customer and everything else. It’s near impossible to create the perfect customer experience time and time again, without those controls and management are extremely hard to do to have people in different locations. Always being consistent with the way you treat your customer is the hardest thing and you know, the big retailers know it without question when you start looking at big retailers to this level of service. So that’s one reason that when you look at our competitors online and the Amazons when they have their management and control under one place, they completely control the script and let people know exactly what they can and can’t do. It makes it hard on retail, and we are dealing as everyone in this podcast knows that we’re dealing with pay levels that do not that have a big business. And it makes it tough. We love what we do every one of us, but it’s also a hard job.

David DeKeyser  12:06

Do you have any ideas there on ways to bolster those pay levels?

Dan Thornton  12:13

Well, it’s a margin game. Everybody knows, you know, I have friends that are consultants. And here you have people that are consultants in different industries, they have absolutely zero inventory, their assets or laptops. And that’s it. When they sell their businesses, they’re selling it at eight and 10 times revenue of gross profit. And typically, I find that most are looking at three times at best. And that’s if they’re really, really good with really, really good books and fantastic profits. And that’s tough to deal with. So, to raise the pay scale of an employee, the only way it’s going to happen is to increase your income and volume to make sure that you’re highly profitable and as we all know in this industry, That’s typically not the case. It’s just typically not the case, we’re dealing with many, many retailers that if they break, even in a year, they consider it a very good year. And in many cases, they have spouses and other people that help cover their paycheck. You know, it’s just not the normal business. You know, we’re very lucky, though, that we’ve survived when most of the retail has failed, which gives me a glimmer of hope that there are places for retailers to continue to move along the path to profitability, slowly find their way into where their profits match their efforts because it’s hard. It’s not easy.

David DeKeyser  13:41

And there seem to be almost two different types of stores. There are the stores that are being run from a very businesslike standpoint and the stores that are trying but are missing the mark and there’s just not enough kind of meat on the bone. If you’re not firing on all cylinders, and some of those things areas with the amount of time that you guys have been doing this with your stores. Are you always working on TREK has that turret you know, they always use the term continuous improvement you kind of run into that? Or do you find yourself doing that? Where you’re continuously trying to get down to the bone with a scalpel and really find areas that you can make more money? Whether that’s with data, or however? Or do you feel like you’ve hit your stride as a business from what you can improve?

Dan Thornton  14:31

No, I believe fully that there’s always room for improvement. We’re continually It doesn’t matter what decision we make anything whether it be new canopies for our events or new fixtures for the walls. We look at everything from a financial standpoint, is there going to be ROI? Is there going to be a return on investment for what we’re getting ready to do here or is it just because we think it’s really cool to have and those decisions are made every single day based on what’s going to be better for us the processes we use for service check-in. And you know, I look at track as an amazing partner. I don’t really know where we would be today without that because I see comments on some of our industry forums where I can tell that retailers are operating the way we did 25 years ago, just seat of the pants, cash registers. And you know, many cases, I believe a lot of retailers have pointed sales, but really, they’re just very, very expensive cash registers. inventory is inaccurate. No maximums being used, service orders, and service tickets aren’t being controlled. It just goes on and on and on. And you don’t have to have a business degree. Obviously I don’t. And you don’t have to have a business degree to get it to do it to make it work. But you got to have a commitment. And it’s always a commitment to doing better. And I think so many retailers and I understand it, I get it. I’ve been there to wear every day you turn the key in your day is in your face and it doesn’t end when it does. End You have no time for anything, you go home, you’re exhausted. You start over the next day, there’s never time for continuous improvement. But that’s how it’s going to get better. And if you can’t find the time to do that, it’s a long road. Without profits, it’s very hard to be profitable. Right? Not enough margin.

David DeKeyser  16:20

That’s always going to be the hard thing, I think is to, as you said, there’s just not enough hours in the day if you’re being slammed. That brings us to today where most retailers seem to say that they’re exhausted with what has been happening in the last few months. And there’s been a few that sound almost invigorated by the challenge and everything. How are you doing? How are you personally handling this and how are you feeling kind of on a day to day basis right now?

Dan Thornton  16:51

For me, it’s been invigorating, there’s been nothing but invigoration coming from me, I have been for the last 10 or so years. Very, very backseat to our business, allowing my son who’s our general manager. And before him, even prior general managers to run 80%, probably more like 90% of this business. And when this happened, unfortunately, my son was out riding and took a hard crash and had to be taken out by ambulance because he broke his femur. And the day it happened, I’m like, oh, I look like I’m gonna be back on the retail floor. And I came into one of the stores that probably needed the most help. And just said, Okay, it’s time for me to get involved. I got very involved in everything that he would do. He was almost two weeks completely out of touch because of it just it was a pretty severe break and surgery by followed by, now, you know, rehabilitation therapy and things and he’s doing better. He’s activated again, but it’s activating to a point that I’m kind of excited to be back at it. I’m 62 years old and thought I was pretty much done with retail. I’m having actually more fun than I’ve had in many, many years doing what I do, and just a newfound passion for the showroom of retail. And it showed me an awful lot of where we are what we need. And, you know, we’ve taken the store that all of our stores are up substantially as a company, we’re up 52% on the year, we went into COVID, up about 17% thinking we were having the best year we’re going to have when it happened, we closed for three days thinking this is going to be devastating and the worst thing could ever happen to us. We modified our business, change the world we were doing change the way we did business, and had meetings with our managers and immediately opened up and the rest is history is just insanity every day, you know, we leave, you’re exhausted. we’ve modified our hours, not only our hours of a day, but we also modified our opening days to give every single employee the opportunity to have two days off. Could we be up 60 or 70%? Absolutely, but I think I threw that would have lost some really, really Good employees and lost their confidence in me as a decision-maker to keep the business going. It’s extremely hard as it is, I’m happy to say we’ve really lost no employees through this stressful time so

David DeKeyser  19:15

and that’s mainly due to having an extra day off or two days off, you think and producing those hours.

Dan Thornton  19:22

Will no employee ever worked more than five days a week. That’s our mantra. I want employees to ride their bikes, have fun, enjoy family, and do what they do. So we don’t drive anybody past we really don’t expect even managers to put in more than 45 hours a week. And nobody’s this most of our managers have been putting in less than typical. So by closing two days a week, it’s allowed us to have 100% full staff attendance every day of the week. So we don’t have those split schedules to where one day you have five people in the showroom, and one day you have three. One day you have to mechanics one day you have four based on seven days a week and the number of hours where Open typically. So what we’ve done is just gone 10 to five every day, and Tuesday through Saturday, every week. This week we’re stepping up because things we can see the tempo is starting to change. A lot of it’s based on product availability, bicycles aren’t available as they were early on. So with that happening, we’re modifying and we’re going to go 10 to seven. We’re here till seven every day anyway. We’re just here normally from five to seven, organizing for the next day building bugs cleaning up taking care of service, everybody has a role in a task, mopping cleaning touch surfaces, just doing everything we need to do to be prepared to turn the key the next day. So now what we’re going to do is go ahead and open up till seven. We think we’re still gonna have time for that sort of thing after because the volume has flowed our numbers are still quite good. Every day I keep saying we’re going to have the worst June we’ve ever had yet. We’re off the charts in June even though it feels like we don’t have inventory. We’re getting bikes. They’re just not enough. But we’re selling a lot of things that we probably wouldn’t have sold. So, you know, at this point, month to date, we’re up 116% over last June was huge. It’s crazy. Yeah, it’s crazy. So it’s a good time for the industry. But I think everybody has to take a deep breath and realize that no matter how you treat your people and what you do for your employees, we’ve been bonusing extra pay on an hourly basis. We’ve increased everybody’s pay through this for now. And we’ve also allowed all the employees that have goals and marks to hit on a monthly basis. We’ve just taken that off the table and said, instead, we’re just going to continue to pay the full bonus whether you hit those marks or not because some of them the way we’re handling services, not measurable. You know, we had service ticket sizes that we would bonus on, we had, you know, email capture rate that we would bonus on and things like that. So we just took all those bonuses and said we’re going to give them to you as long as you’re here every day working hard. We’re going to give you your full bonus regardless Have you hit your measurables? At some point that’ll change back and will go back to normal and, you know, employees will still be compensated well, but right now we feel like we owe it to our employees. So it’s been great.

David DeKeyser  22:13

So kind of looking forward over the next month or two, you noted that you’ve started to see a little bit of a slowing. And is that a slowing in the numbers due to product availability? Or is it a slowing in that people, the general public is starting to go back to work and there’s kind of normalization started to happen in society it? Yes, it’s both

Dan Thornton  22:39

Georgia was one of the early states to start opening back up. And we noticed almost immediately the traffic patterns started picking back up and were notorious for horrendous traffic. It’s still nothing like it was many, many office spaces are still closed and other things like that, but without question a difference in the number of door swings, we track traffic and we know our traffic counts are way, way off. The difference now is we’re a little more able to handle the customer without the ferociousness, you know, the people lined up outside and we’re just not as stressed on a day to day basis. So we’re able to take probably even better care of our customers yet still control traffic. We don’t have open showrooms. We’re allowing one customer to instill her, but they’re not lined up 10 deep, but we’re still seeing that those customers that are in are here to buy. And if we have what they need, they’re buying it. Services not quite as far back as it was. We’ve never been more than two and a half weeks. doing most of our while you wait for quick repairs. At the front door. We’ve set tents upfront kind of triage centers, and if it’s deeper than that, we let them come on back, talk to the mechanics and determine whether or not it’s something they want to leave for two weeks, but that’s about where we’ve stayed in two weeks for the most part on one service turnaround.

24:01

Have you heard of P2 groups and wondered what they are? P2 stands for the profitability project. And while profitability is that the focus of everything we do, we do so much more p to group members share their expertise and their insights. They ask questions and they exchange resources to make sure every member is profitable and successful in every aspect of bike shop ownership. Reach out today so we can tell you more.

David DeKeyser  24:36

As far as the locked showroom, and how you’re operating currently. Do you have any sense as to how long that will last? Is that something that you feel could continue as long as the virus seems to be circulating or is that something you feel you might wind back? Have you given that any thought at this point?

Dan Thornton  24:58

Yes or no? Definitely given a thought, a day, we have no clue. The difference now is on a typical Saturday in the season, there are times that you’re overrun with customers, and you don’t think about it twice. You just have people wandering the showroom waiting for somebody and it’s just as out of control the differences. There’s no order to the order. You have to have a pretty good showroom general that knows what’s going on and is always continually pointing and saying, okay, somebody would be right with you. What are you okay, Bill? Sue, will you help them? Can you help hurt you? And now what’s happening is they’re outside instead of inside, and when they come in, we have time to talk to them. It’s very unique and different to have to speed up a conversation when you can tell. Maybe they’re just COVID stir crazy and want to chat and get to that point where we’re like, Okay, well, you know, if you wanted to go ahead, we’ve shown you what we have. We’ve got other people waiting outside. If you’re not ready to make a decision. We understand we’re here. Come back or call us another time. You kind of has to escort them out because you can’t let somebody The phone is the worst part about our business right now is taking care of the phone. But you can’t let them come in and be the phone call that goes on and on and on to where they just want to talk about their last two months of lockdown. And that’s what’s happening is you just could sense that people want to chat sharing the point where

David DeKeyser  26:20

you’ve had a big increase in phone traffic as well.

Dan Thornton  26:23

It’s probably our biggest stress or concern right now. And there’s a point where you cannot get to all the calls. It goes to voicemail right now we’d love to you can’t obviously but you know the TREK Marlin is the hot bike. There’s the Marlin the bird and the FX are the three bikes that if I had an unlimited supply, I don’t even know what we do. We would have people lined up 50 deep and if we had an unlimited supply, but we don’t so you know, my part of me and I told the guys the other day in the manager’s meeting, Colin, I said I really love to put on this on the phone recording message that says thank you for calling free-float bicycles. We at this time don’t have Marlins. We Don’t have verbs and we don’t have the x’s. If that’s what you’re looking for, please call us back in two weeks click. And just because that’s what it is, all we do is explain and then they don’t understand why they think it’s because China makes the bikes and it’s all about the duty and import problems that have been going on. And it’s not it’s just nine months of bikes have been sold in 10 weeks, 12 weeks period. It’s hard for them to grasp that. Why can’t they just make more? You know,

David DeKeyser  27:26

how far out Have you placed orders now and it’s kind of a two-part question is How are you planning the next few months inventory wise? And is there some light at the end of the tunnel from an availability standpoint?

Dan Thornton  27:38

I don’t know how other companies are managing backorders I think truck I got to take my hat off to them. They have done an amazing job of fairly handing out bicycles and when I say fairly, if you have some business sense and you have the time to sit down and place your backorders, your bikes will come to you in the order you placed them. There’s no Cutting in line. There’s no favoritism to trick stores. And I thought at first that that was one of my big fears is like, oh boy, now we’re going to be competing to get bikes from people that own the stores, they’re going to get them first. And that hasn’t been true. If you place your orders now, it doesn’t mean they weren’t way ahead of us and getting some back orders and but it does mean that you get your bikes in the order you place them. So we’ve been placing orders weekly to kind of keep a flow of bikes coming. I mean anybody that went in and said on one 100, Marlin mediums, hundred smalls, they don’t have the ability to take on 400 mostly 400 bikes at any given time. So even if they could, they wouldn’t get them. But what we’ve been doing from the very start was placing orders all the way back to April. For bikes that we thought were going to be a problem so we keep getting them weekly. We’re getting shipments but it’s not enough. It’s just not when it’s going to get better. I’m seeing there are bikes that if you go to Trek’s website, it tells you right now, if you place an order today, that order would be placed and delivered on x. And right now there are bikes all the way out to November in December. If you don’t have bikes in the queue and you haven’t been aggressive on keeping orders in, it could be a very long year for you.

David DeKeyser  29:14

And I heard that the 2020 ones in not with the track but with another manufacturer that is already showing sold out. And I think that that’s kind of that same timeframe of November, December, January.

Dan Thornton  29:25

Yeah. So it seems like we’ve already been getting some 2021 bikes, both road and mountain bikes, but those are all bikes that like I said, we went in and placed what trek did was very wise was, let’s say the color was blue, and you placed orders and back orders for blue. And the new bikes coming in green. What they did was they just converted your order over rather than saying, Oh, you didn’t know about the new color yet you’re out to align. So the person that placed an order a month and a half later when the new model shows up. They don’t step in front of you. It’s obvious that they put a huge amount of time and energy thinking through the process to make sure that their dealers are treated fairly. I’m quite impressed. of all three companies, their shipments have been on time. I know most of our other vendors are struggling with three and four-day delays. Shimano East Coast so they have very few employees. And we’re, we’re seeing like six and seven-day delays from the time the orders picked at the time it leaves the door trick we’re still getting if we get it in by two or three, we’re getting the shipment out the same day. So I have to say I’m pleasantly surprised at what’s been going on with our partner.

David DeKeyser  30:30

That’s great to hear. You know, now everybody’s trying to look at the crystal ball a little bit. And I think that there’s some hope that you know, the one question that everybody keeps popping up, is this going to last? And I think that there are two parts to that where we’re already seen, like you said, with things loosening up, there are fewer people that only have bikes to go to. So that might soften up demand a little bit, but do you feel that have you gotten the For many of these people, that this is something that is going to become a regular part of their life. And we may have a rising tide of participants over the next few years.

Dan Thornton  31:10

I’m an optimist and believe Yes, I am seeing still more people on bikes, whether it be neighborhoods, bike paths, trails. I’ve started this week doing some group rides, we’re still you know, social distancing in the parking lot. We’re not getting on the wheel as we would normally do for road rides. But the numbers are greater. And I’m starting to see now in our sales, some high-end road bikes are going that weren’t going in the heat of all this. We’re seeing high in mountain bikes. Our Santa Cruz inventory has been depleted. We can’t wait until the announcements of the new product and about a week and a half, and orders placed. So my gut says that we’re going to continue to roll I really do not see. I know there’s a lot of pessimism out there. And I keep seeing people saying Yeah, you’re going to see all these bikes on the Facebook marketplace and eBay and another year. that’s gonna happen. I mean, there are definitely people that got caught up in this and said, I gotta have a bike, gotta have a bike. Now I have a bike, why buy a bike? I think there’s going to be a continuation of this. I think people are learning to vacation without going to Europe or going to the beach. The staycations have been a big part of our sales, families coming in buying for bikes on a bike rack. And I’m seeing more and more bikes on backs of cars as I go to the bank and go go grab lunch or whatever. There’s, without question, more activity. So I think long term, we’re all going to see a positive kick from this not just now but in the future. But there’s no crystal ball. I wish I had one. You know, like, we sold the whole bikes in April May. And our rec sales were just okay. People were coming and going, Oh, no, and you know, and they’re buying $600 $800 $900 bikes. And I think the money shock of buying a couple of bikes at $800 when most people were probably wishing they could have bought a $500 kept them away from buying a bike rack. Well, it was almost a boomerang effect. those same people are coming in now wanting racks and racks are out two months now. So what was a bike shortage is still a bike shortage but now there’s a rack shortage. There are no racks hardly to be had immediate shipping who could have predicted that you needed or Yakima sales doubled already this year more than doubled. And we can’t get more for a while. So it’s pretty shocking to see what’s going on. And those are those things that if you had a crystal ball, you could have said you know what’s gonna happen? All these people are gonna need a way to transport these bikes are buying but I doubt many people thought that way and didn’t bank orders and all of a sudden now, inventories dried up. So people are like, what, why can’t I get a rack? You know, it’s just not that easy.

David DeKeyser  33:46

let’s shift gears a little bit. I kind of want to touch base on your involvement with the NBA over the years if you want to give us a little history there.

Dan Thornton  33:56

Yeah, happy to gosh now it’s probably been 20 plus years because I’ve been off the board at least three years. And I’m not good with saying Oh, it was 19 X that I did x. But I was invited to be on the board of directors as a, just a board of directors. I was on the board for 17 years. So I went through the board was on the board for many years, and then slowly started taking officer positions from secretary-treasurer to VP. And then finally president, and then I was the chairman the year after passed after that. And then when that was over, I just said that that’s enough. I’ve done enough. It’s obviously anybody that knows anything about the NBA knows that it’s a nonprofit association, and there’s no compensation for the board, no stipends. And it wasn’t really about the money. It was just the fact that I had felt like I had done my time doing what I could do. My whole goal going into the NBA was to try to help dealers be better and see dealers that really wanted to reach out and figure out a way to make money be profitable. in this industry, we love to do that. And that was the whole design in the desire programs from everything, including those that know the PT program. That was my whole intent of being on the board was to just see this industry continue to prosper and raise all boats. I felt like we did some really good things while I was there. It was a good run I met some amazing people from J grades of the formal owner of the bike gallery, Chris Cagle, one of my best friends ever. Whelan, sprocket and on down the number of people that I served on that board with and got close to was just incredible and helped my business tremendously as well.

David DeKeyser  35:43

Why don’t you talk about that a little bit more? From a mentorship standpoint, you have three stores in Georgia. They’re good-sized stores, but some of the names that you just mentioned, you were rubbing elbows with, kind of the Titan so the bike industry in a way and What did that mentorship mean to you? And how much did that involvement? I know you were involved in the P2 groups talk about that a little bit. 

Dan Thornton  36:08

Sure, I’d be happy to well, it all started I think in about 1999. I was invited to go over to the Tour de France. And I believe that was the first year that Lance won the Tour. And I was there with some pretty heavy hitters that the industry that I had only read about at that time, my wife and I were there. Were there with Chris Kegel, Jay Graves the former owner of the bike gallery in Portland, Oregon, gossips Hill Able from Austin, Texas. And the list just goes on. And I hate that I left anybody out. But even Jimmy Hoyt from Texas is there and I realized quickly that these guys were no different than me. They just got an earlier start on growth and realize quickly that Yeah, there’s room for us to be bigger and better. And I started listening and talking and asking questions. About how they did this, how they did that. How did they come to this? How do they come to that? It wasn’t long before we got home, and we started really looking at our ability to grow. It was a huge turning point for us. When you can be in a room with the brains that I was able to spend a week with. You cannot get that back. There’s just no way that you can pay for that type of education. Not long after the NBDA, I was invited to be on the board of the NBA. And at that point, Chris Kegel said, Hey, I think Dan would be a good board member. Let’s ask them and bring them on. That’s when we started talking about the idea of the P2 group early on. And Jay Graves and I were the first two said absolutely. We actually cut a check before there was a P2 group and left it with Jay Townley and said Jay, get this thing started. Here’s a check. And he said on those checks for over a year before, I believe at that time, Fred Clements started working with Dan Mann as a consultant. And the decision was made to go ahead and let’s get this P2 things started. And it was the best money I’ve ever spent getting in the room with some really smart retailers. So we were involved in group one. group one was extremely successful in the P2 group. And we were meeting twice a year, we were talking on the phone on a regular basis, sharing of our numbers, I could see quickly that there was so much potential for us to be better and do better. All I had to do was listen and change the way I did business. And that’s the hardest part is making those changes. The listening parts easy. You know, anybody can go to a meeting, make a bunch of notes, and come back and do nothing. But changing them is what really helped us and visually seeing where we were compared to these guys. I was seeing numbers of margin different so I’m like what the heck you know, we’re not getting 42 points after everything. We’re not getting 46 points. We’re getting 38 points. So when we’re not making money, we’re not seeing growth here. Our labor as a percentage of sales is this, our rent as a percentage of sales is that and when you start seeing numbers that come out of P two, it’s eye-opening, that you’re doing something wrong. Or you’re doing something very right. Not everybody’s doing anything wrong. They’re just a confirmation that Yeah, we’re doing everything we can possibly do. Which means the P2 group isn’t for everybody. But the collaboration and sharing ideas was unreal. I’m no longer on it. I realized when I wasn’t that active in the day to day business that I had kind of run my time through and it seemed like I wasn’t getting back near as much as I was giving in the meetings, and the sharing of numbers and I just finally said, okay, I’ve done my time on the board. I’ve shared my numbers, I’ve shared my secrets of what’s helped us grow. Now it’s just time for me to kind of kick back and not really do this anymore, and have that extra expense. I looked at it as an expense at some point. But that Doesn’t mean everyone should it’s if you’re early in your career and you’re struggling to figure it all out, there’s not much better you can do than be a member of P2. It’s phenomenal.

David DeKeyser  40:10

Well, thank you, Dan. That was a pretty glowing endorsement of the P2 program number one, and fun history of both your involvement in the NBDA and the P2 group along with your business. And I think that anybody that listens to this is going to have an enjoyable few minutes learning more about your business and getting some ideas on how to be a better retailer. So thank you very much for joining us today. You’re quite welcome. enjoyed it. If you found this episode or others of bicycle retail radio insightful and informative, please consider joining the NBDA if you haven’t already by visiting nbda.com as the NBDA has benefits that can save you money and improve your business. Ultimately, your membership adds to the collective voice of this specialty bicycle retailer. In the NBDA his efforts to represent and advocate for your interests.

Rod Judd  41:04

Thank you everyone for listening. This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @nbda.com

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David DeKeyser and his wife Rebecca Cleveland owned and operated The Bike Hub in De Pere, Wisconsin, for nearly 18 years. In 2018, they sold the business and real estate to another retailer based in a nearby community. David now writes the Positive Spin series on Bicycle Retailer and Industry News and he writes articles for the NBDA’s blog, Outspokin’. David also provides business consulting through the NBDA’s P2 Consult Program.

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

Now is the time to become a member as we join together to make one another stronger. Whether you’re a retailer or an industry partner, your membership in the NBDA is one of the best investments you’ll make this year. 

Learn more about the benefits of being a member and join now.

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The post Continuously Improving w/Dan Thornton appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Todd Cravens

Tue, 8/18 10:46AM • 32:53

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

retailers, business, bike, people, bike shops, pre-tax profit, buying, profitability, number, bit, factories, store, bicycle, inventory, items, sales, expense, margin, run, businesses

SPEAKERS

Todd Cravens, Rod Judd, Tara Kuipers, David DeKeyser, Kent Cranford

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to Bicycle Retail Radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

David DeKeyser  00:16

Hello and welcome to another episode of bicycle retail radio. My name is David DeKeyser and I do retail consulting for the NBDA is P2 Consult program. You can find more information on that program and all the other great benefits the NVDA provides and the NBDA is website nbda.com. Today’s guest is Todd Cravens. Todd is the Vice President of Business Development at quality bicycle products. Todd has well over Forty years of industry experience. And with that, thank you, Todd, for taking the time to join us today.

Todd Cravens  00:45

Oh, thank you, David. I’m really pleased to be here.

David DeKeyser  00:48

First off, why don’t you give us a little bio on your experience over the years, and as you finish up, maybe you could go into what you’re doing day to day at QBP.

Todd Cravens  00:56

Okay, thank you. I was bitten by like bug about age 10 and not being able to sit shaken. So bicycles have been a personal passion of mine. And that morphed into working in stores through my youth in school and starting a store on campus in college and doing economic research on the common behavior of bike shops and businesses and college on to import work being a partner in a store in the Washington DC area in the 80s, working in manufacturer serrana. And then eventually coming to QBP. Working in customer service, product development, Product Management, purchasing sales, and in many cases, both things wrapped around retailer support at this point in my career. As the Vice President of Business Development, I’m the one tasked with looking to the future and developing things that will help our retailers and suppliers thrive. And so, on a daily basis, that does mean quite a bit of retailer contact both big and small.  That’s part of how we’re trying to keep our finger on the pulse of what it is that retailers are experiencing needing and wanting. And there are times when Someone says they want something. And I might actually disagree and think rather, that somebody actually may want something but maybe need something else. And that if we talk about what’s happening in the way our world has changed post-COVID, and how shopping habits have changed and what many retailers have had to do to attack. So you can kind of adjust to whether it’s a new normal or not the new conditions, I’m not sure many people would say that those are things they wanted. But if we talk about retailers being available to consumers a variety of ways, whether it’s online or social, I would argue those would be things that retailers need. And so, you know, a daily basis can also be things I said on our credit committee. So I see a lot of bicycle shop financial information, I mean, the sign off-chain there, and it’s something that kind of developed a bit of a knack for in terms of helping me to understand the financial health of our retailers. And that can go to margin conversations with vendors when a vendor develops an item and gives them an app and said what they think the margin should be for a retailer. I’ve consulted with a number of vendors and been able to share with them that that actually that margins down Enough based on what bike shops average expenses are. And what I find is that oftentimes vendors don’t know what that number is. But we have real data. So you know what they are. And it’s something that happens behind the scenes, but something that I’ve done as well. So those are maybe a few bits and pieces. It’s a bit of a mixed bag on a daily basis.

David DeKeyser  03:17

Excellent. Yeah, we’ll dig into that profitability thing here in just a little bit. I think that that’ll be very interesting. The first major topic right now, as of today in the industry, I think a lot of retailers are wondering about inventory levels, what that’s going to look like over the next few months. What you take us on that. And do you have any suggestions for what retailers could do either to prepare if we think we’re going to have shortages? So basically, how did we get to where we are at this point in time and what can we do going forward?

Todd Cravens  03:50

Right, thank you. I think that you know, part of how we got here was that 12 manufacturers and distributors had forecast badass growth for spring of 20 Nobody was expecting what would come the devastating effects of COVID not only in the tragic loss of life but all the economic disruption, particularly as things really lit up in the United States and march for a period of time, we saw sales drop off at a rate of 30%, which is really not sustainable for virtually any business. And we had to take some very drastic actions in our organization, as in other companies out there if we look at this general industry, it was pretty scary. The switch flip, though, and cycling seemed to be something that people could do. I think, in many cases, Mike’s offer a more affordable solution that a new bass boat or a new jet ski or a new car, whatever that is.  And so we saw, this has come roaring back through our retailers, many of the retailers we’ve worked with and spoken to, it talked about working hours and having the kind of business that those who have been around a long time experienced during the bike boom in the early 70s that they’ve been told about and to the point that has been so much growth for many people that is beyond stressful. It’s rather hard to continue to meet day after day. But as we go to some of the things that happened through this is starting to fall off a number of companies very quickly, canceled purchase orders or put them on the factories got this information and they made adjustments in many cases they were struggling with staffing their factories due to the closures and quarantines that staff had been in due to COVID issues in Southeast Asia. So as things kind of peeled back like that, a number of, again, factors you’re able to adjust. But when things very quickly flipped, and all of a sudden demand came roaring back. At that point, many of the light companies, ourselves included, came back to our factories and said, Oh no, we know you’re only at 80% capacity. But here’s 120 or 150% of what we originally thought we wanted, which kind of created a big gap for the factory to try to meet demand. If you throw in the fact that three of Shimano factories in Malaysia, Philippines and Singapore which make a lower-end middle-end product, very, very popular on the OEM side, high demand if you will, those factories were shuttered for anywhere from 30 to 45 days, and the That was a problem as well.  So we’ve seen these kinds of supply-side shocks and some demand-side shocks as well, both the fall off and then there’s roaring back. And that so there have been some gaps for the manufacturers, if you will, to try to catch up. So we’ve seen quite a bit of pressure on them. And that’s both on the bike side and on the PMA side. So that’s a bit of kind of where we got there, if that makes sense, and really about advice and dealing with it. It is so challenging for everyone, My heart goes out to everybody here. I really think this is the place where you do lead to the relationships you created. So hopefully the suppliers you’re working with you have a good credit relationship, you know, the credit managers are going to need to know that you’re likely going to need more credit because you’re buying more and buying more frequently. Hopefully, there’s enough cash flow is being generated that you can not only seek that but also continue to meet your credit obligations. We’re a big believer as a company and just in time inventory that gives retailers more flexibility, and we fund our inventory such that retailers can order more frequently from us get higher returns. And actually spin if you will more cash through the business but with a lower capital requirement, so we’re big believers and just in time inventory, we think you’ve got less at risk. I think that what we’re seeing right now with demand, this is a place where, especially on bread and butter items, retailers should probably take a longer view of days on-hand inventory, because they’re things you just don’t want to be out of, you don’t want to be added to you want to be out of tires, you want to be out of cables on the service side as an example.  But there are also accessory items that should go on every bike or that people should be buying from you that you also don’t want to be out of. So I think a retailer at this time should probably put more days on hand in stock. And that’s because the product is available. It’s certainly run out in some category, some items. And that’s been challenging again, for everybody because everybody wants it. I think those are a couple of ways to get at it traditionally. I think you have to be more comfortable with substituting out something maybe even a product line that you add a product line because it’s available and it’s filling a need that you have and it’s maybe not your first choice but you know, I was talking to a large retailer and NVDA member of course who made the comment to me that as well. suppliers run out of a poor group of bikes. And when he said, What should I do? I’m thinking about adding another brand. The vendor said, Oh, don’t do that. That’s a horrible idea. The retailer asked, Well, how long will he be? And he’s like at least five weeks. Well, that’s not acceptable. This retailer can’t be without bikes for five weeks. So he did bring on another line. And I’m not suggesting that retailers just kind of willy nilly jump lines. But I think you have to be open to meeting those opportunities as they become available to you. Does that make sense? Does that kind of get out at David?

David DeKeyser  08:29

Absolutely. Yep. I think that’s great advice. And it’s interesting to hear. I’ve heard a few people discuss where bikes were made and how that might affect where they’re coming from. But when you paint the picture of these parts are coming from there’s also parts included when you’re buying bikes, so it’s just that whole supply chain has been interrupted across the board.  So even if you could get parts of a bike, you may not get the whole bike. 

Todd Cravens  08:55

Well, that’s true. And the other piece to throw in there is it comes out of a tariff We as a bike industry has had to deal with is that a number of manufacturers, ourselves included, are in the process of moving our supply chains. And in a naive world, the feedback I’ve gotten from some retailers, it’s a little bit jaded. It’s like, I don’t know why to do that. I mean, it’s really easy. Just go to a different country, you know, kind of like a Burger Kings out, you go to McDonald’s kind of a thing, and it doesn’t quite work that way. And what we found is in the best possible instance, and that’s with everything working perfectly and working with existing people that you know, you’re 18 months, and you could easily be 22 to 24 months. Because you go to different countries, you’ve got to qualify, all of the manufacturing, you’ve got to qualify all the samples, and then your batch testing when you’re doing production. And so I wish it were easy but not and on the one hand, actually, it’s rather making it having all these hurdles, it slows you down to be sure, but particularly with the batch testing, it allows you to catch things upstream so they never hit the retailer and they never hit the consumer so you catch things before they’re a problem. It is a fairly involved thing. So yeah, that’s been a challenge for everyone.

David DeKeyser  10:03

So let’s kind of turn a corner here. You and I had had a conversation. And you would allude to this in your introduction about profitability. And what QBP has found the average stores pre-tax profits are overall what they are for good stores. Why don’t we kind of dive into that a little bit? I think that this is something that retailers would probably find interesting if they don’t know how they stack up to other retailers, A and B, what the potential is, or them profitability wise.

Todd Cravens  10:35

I’ve been in the industry, as you mentioned, for a very long time, ever since I can remember. So I started working in bike shops in eighth grade, I’ve always been told you can’t make a lot of money in the bike business, or, you know, kind of the old thing that we kidded about how do you make a small fortune start with a large fortune and you know, it’s like as I spent time as I did research and that as I owned a store and then as I continue to support retailers throughout my career, I have come across a number of retailers that have made a very comfortable living, and in some cases creating wealth. And they run really disciplined businesses. And they certainly work hard. We all work hard, but they pull it off. And so when I think about that, I know what’s out there. And in most cases, those retailers are running their business like a business and some retailers that I’ve spoken to take offense when I say that, and my intention is never to be offensive, but it’s rather to reflect on what it is you’re doing, and are you getting the result you want. And if you’re not, then you need to change and you change by looking at what’s causing your results. Right. So you know, we’ve seen pre-tax profit between 2.2 and 3.9%. On average, frankly, with sgma is from 35 to 45%, which is quite high. If you think of a vendor crowing about an item that is digit percent gross profit margin or that so keep what we have called Keystone over the years. You know, there’s not a lot left over frankly, yet. We have seen also retailers that are pushing 10 to 12% pre-tax those retailers and it’s not that you know, running on a shoestring or doesn’t have any overhead Don’t pay their staff or things of that nature. They’re significantly more efficient. They do run leaner, as it relates to SAS or their staff gets worked pretty hard. But they are also really operating on the three kinds of a leverage point to the income statement around how they maximize sales, how they maximize margin, and that comes out of how they buy. And then lastly, their expense Hawks. And now the expense part is the least alluring part of the job. If you like bikes, you don’t really want to be negotiating with your insurance broker and the people that provide your internet and your landlord and utility company on and on and on. But that’s what we found, as we’ve done the research and income statement says we’ve visited retailers as we’ve done work with v2, we did work with v2 over a period of time there were definitely those retailers that did that. And I think it goes back to, frankly, the basics of are you buying and selling items on which you can be profitable and again, that’s for some people. That sounds ridiculous to say it that way. I continue to be floored that retailers sell products on which they aren’t profitable. And then Kind of insult to injury is on which they do not know that they’re not profitable. And that’s a really, really scary combination.

David DeKeyser  13:07

One question I had that I kind of came back to after our last conversation was the pre-tax profits. The NBA, in their cost of doing business surveys, has a term owners’ compensation and profits to gross sales and those numbers that you’re talking about anywhere from 2.2% to 1012, or 15%. Those do not include the owner’s salary, is that correct?

Todd Cravens  13:30

Those numbers actually do include the owner. So do I do that there are what I would call a fully loaded income statement? And so no, they do, in fact, for that 2.2 to four-point or 3.9. These aren’t people that are writing a massive distribution at the end of the year, you know, and so, exact comp shoots off the page. You know, these are folks that are operating just above or just below average costs, and it’s kind of a precarious place to be the people that are running tidy your businesses with higher pre-tax profits, the difference we see that really drives at home The expense piece we’ll see a five-point Delta on the expense, sometimes seven points. And sometimes it’s because the retailer really did bread and water for the first several years and that retailer was able to get a mortgage to buy a building and eventually pay him or herself rent.  And at the end of a 35-year run, they didn’t just have a business with a pre-tax profit to sell. So there could be multiple, they had good inventory, even though it’s going to be written down on a sale, but they had a building they could either sell or rent. And so you know, they’ve got they’re building a tangible asset for which there’s a public market. You know, there are a lot of stores that are not making a lot of money that at the end of 30 years, if they’re operating maybe two to 4%, pre-tax, they’ve got okay inventory, they rent a building, even if they’re pulling down, let’s be generous and say 5% because the math is easier, and they’re doing a million dollars. And you say that somehow you talk somebody into paying, you have five times multiple, we’re retiring on what it would be a very small amount of money, so to speak, and so think it’s a bit of the battle. What you find on a daily basis, and that’s how you win the war at the end, if you will, maybe that language is through martial, but nonetheless, you’ve really got to be engaged, measuring regularly. So I still know retailers, they look at annual balance sheet income statement, they don’t look at monthly or weekly. And I’m a big believer in charting your progress because the sooner you find what your results are, if they’re what you want, we’ll do more of it. If they’re not what you want, figure out what’s causing it and change it so then you can get what you want.

Kent Cranford  15:29

This podcast is brought to you by NBDA, membership, and industry donors to continue providing education and content like the podcast you’re listening to now. We need your support, go to NBDA.com and join or donate today.

David DeKeyser  15:49

So one of the big discussions is always around the margin. And we talked about this a little bit and how to increase it and one of the topics you brought up was the idea of value pricing and you use the analogy sample from when you were a store owner. And I was wondering if you could kind of go through that real quick.

Todd Cravens  16:05

Sure, thank you be sure to qualify this for everybody I store in the 80s. It was before the internet, it wasn’t a Washington, DC suburbs, there was a strong personal income component. And it was during the 80s, which was kind of a gogo time in the economy, especially in Washington. But we were clear that there were certain items that customers didn’t shop you on, they just want to know that you had it and could fix it. For us. It was sealed 27 by one and a quarter chromed bolt-on roadwheels. We paid I think I want to say 865 if I remember right, and we sold them for 3499 all day.  And again, the question was always not how much is it? It was rather can you do this and get me back on the road right now that taught us a valuable lesson one we tried to position ourselves as a shop that offered exceptional value, not prices, but exceptional value. So we were customer-centric, checked into our community involved in our community as well of course, but we did look at a number of things where we believe we could make more money and so we mark things As such now where there are some things that were just kind of insanely competitive, absolutely, we could get those things for people, but we didn’t stock them because we wouldn’t make enough money on them. And so, while I was an enthusiast and liked all the neat bike parts, we were a business first and had to be profitable. So I think that approaching it that way, knowing what those items are, and often those are service items. But even if we take that step further, I have seen retailers let the items being sold say at service be determined by the service advisor or the service manager, not by what the retailer’s chosen for assortment, that is where the retail will be most profitable.  And I’ve often seen people sell things where they’re either trading dollars or losing money on a repair item when they should be making significantly a significant margin because again, they’re providing a service they can obviously pricing the labor to but it is a piece that can be a disconnect. So I think that value pricing matters as a way to approach your business. So do you have to know your market Absolutely? And yet No, but it will bear Yes, you do. So do you do some testing, of course, you’re going to probably lose a few people along the way customers that think that you’re not worth it? And we were very happy to tell you that we struggle with that at first because we didn’t really lose anybody. It was really, really hard when somebody accused us of charging too much. But interestingly, that didn’t ultimately have an impact that we could measure, as in proper sales down or things of that nature.

David DeKeyser  18:22

Fantastic. So in the big three items here for profitability, we’ve gone over expenses, which are the hard and somewhat boring part we’ve talked about. We’ve talked about margins when I’ve talked to retailers when I was a retailer, and now one of the things that always comes up, it’s just a very knee jerk way of improving their businesses to increase sales. And it seems like the easy way out, well, if I could just get my sales up and fill in the blank with the percentages, or the number of bikes, but you had stated that you need to be very mindful of the cost to increase those sales, and had discussed a multiplier of your pre-tax profits to determine if something actually works. And the example that we had discussed to me was so clear, and I think could be very helpful for retailers about an ad buy, and how you would determine if that was actually successful. And I think to give an idea to that increasing sales, you really need to increase sales if you’re going to spend money to increase the sales

Todd Cravens  19:29

agreed. And thank you, you know, it’s one of those things that I kind of struggle with getting to but I’ve seen it when people are considering an ad buy what for whatever medium you wish that’s agnostic, you spend $1,000, let’s say, which is not insignificant for any store. And I’ve seen retailers say, Well, I spent 1000, and I made about 1000 or 1100. dollars in sales. So you know, I just about broke, even so, I did okay because I got my name out there, you know, and first of all, I think that’s the wrong approach. When you’re evaluating any kind of expense and where you anticipate a return. You need to look at your pre-tax profit. If you can divide that into 100, to get an integer that tells you what the multiplier is how many sales dollars, you have to break even. And so again, because the math is easy in my head, you’ve got a 5% pre-tax profit. If you divide that into 100, you got a multiplier of 20 times that thousand dollars add by breaking, you even get to $20,000. If it doesn’t get you $20,000, you’ve lost money, because margins involved.  I think it’s a handy little tool to evaluate whether or not something is worth it because you can put a hard measure on did it return your sales that it actually makes you money? And I think we often have gotten this from people in the advertising and marketing world when they come to us to say, Oh, no, this is going to be great for you, you’re gonna have a great ROI. Well, you now have a tool to determine whether or not it’s a great ROI or whether or not it’s an ROI at all. Maybe it’s a loss, right. Again, not a particularly alluring thing, but I think it’s a powerful tool to help you be a steward of your business because really for the retailer, if not you who sets the old Harry Truman, the buck stops here. And so that kind of really takes me to. It’s not that you shouldn’t be looking for opportunities. But I’m a big believer in making a plan and then executing your plan. And as you’re executing, you’re measuring and if it’s not going the way you want, you find out what’s the pinch, what’s the area that’s causing the problem, you fix it, and you move forward and keep measuring. I’ve kind of had the belief that because of the feedback, I’ve gotten more people to know what their functional threshold power is, then what their top five expenses are, and most importantly, what they’re doing about those sub-five expenses, because every year those are going on, and even if it’s only 1%, two or 2%. There. And I’ve heard people say it’s not really very much WellQBP if your top 10 expenses all go up 2%. That’s a lot. 

David DeKeyser  21:44

Right.

Tara Kuipers  21:46

Have you heard of P2 groups and wondered what they are. P2 stands for the profitability project. And while profitability is that the focus of everything we do, we do so much more P2 groups Members share their expertise and their insights. They ask questions and they exchange resources to make sure every member is profitable and successful in every aspect of bike shop ownership. Reach out today so we can tell you more.

David DeKeyser  22:21

So I want to talk about competition a little bit between retailers. In a way, if you have two retailers in the same town, and they’re buying products, both from QBP, and they bought at the same product, and they hung up on the wall in their store, they have it priced the same. How can retailers either brand themselves or how do they compete at that point in time when basically the items are identical, the prices are identical, and even the place where they’re buying from is the same?

Todd Cravens  22:51

Yeah, that’s a great question. That’s a tough one too. I think it’s kind of easy to get mired in kind of call negativity around competition and the big believer that stores Have to differentiate themselves. And it’s really foundational to branding and I kind of hang it on as a retailer, how do you make yourself special, distinctive and memorable, and in doing in such a way that people will pay you? That’s kind of the essence of strategy. And you do have to figure that part out, a lot of retailers will say, Well, you know, we’re known for customer service, I can’t tell you how many have told me that some are really exceptional, most are not. Because if you say that you’re being held against how Lexus does service, for instance, regardless of whether or not your Lexus dealer and kind of the other service experiences retailers across the board have provided to this consumer. So I really think that you try to move away from competing on the thing, and more about how are you more alluring to the consumer? How are you working in the community in a way that is creating riders that are perhaps supporting the community? You know, one way to think about it? This is an old example. But when I owned a store, my wife taught at a private school, they had an auction every year we were a retailer. So people came for us to sponsor Little League and other things. We didn’t do that because it wasn’t like it didn’t make sense to us. But the bike made sense to us.  So we were involved in things that promoted cycling. And we donated, I was not clear that I wanted to do it. But I liked the school in one sport, my wife in school, so we donated an expensive road bike at the time. And those were popular. And a very interesting thing happened. And this is again, we learned a lesson here, we backed into it, we weren’t aware of it. Because we supported school. All of a sudden, teachers were buying bikes from us. And all of a sudden, parents were buying bikes for themselves and their children because we supported the school. And so when we cost out what we had put into it, we actually did get a very strong return in a long term way. And really, I think what this highlight is, again, what are you doing this making yourself distinctive? How are you reaching out to communities in a way that is important to them that is meaningful and that they would want to come back because a lot of retailers will give you a narrative on how well they do in every category across the board, whether it’s women or people of color or minorities and I would challenge Specifically, what are you doing that’s meaningful? And it should probably learn that from somebody else rather than just what you think if that makes sense, but I think the differentiation is a really big piece. And that’s a tough one. Because at that point, we’re selling commodities. We absolutely are.

David DeKeyser  25:12

So every day, you and QBP, obviously, are plugged in to what’s happening with retailers, and you’re speaking with retailers you’ve seen over your years, obviously a ton of great retailers and you’ve seen those who have struggled. Is there something that you have found that is just a foundational difference between these different stores and how they’re doing instead of mindset? Is that a certain skill? Is there anything that you’ve ever been able to distill down as to the difference between those who are really succeeding not just in their community, but also financially?

Todd Cravens  25:56

Gosh, I think the biggest piece and it may sound tedious but If that concept around business acumen really matters, and you know, it’s treating the business like a business on an everyday basis, and it is knowing your numbers, and it’s Frankly, I take it back to me in a step back further setting a goal, okay, I’ve set the goal, how do I get there? And so those retailers that have prospered, they lead into their business every day. And it’s not that they don’t take time off, but they are extraordinarily conversant. They do stay on top of business and trends in the industry. They have learned things like real estate, whether they’re renting or whether they’re buying, I can think of one who’s quite successful and he says location, location, location is not a cliche, and he’s right. He’s pretty savvy about where he puts a store. As an example, I think others lookout a little bit further into the future wondering how else they can be efficient. I can think of one who made a massive closeout cash buy which got him even a better origin.  This would have been in the middle 90s and he then computerized his business when computerization is more expensive. But in doing so that gave this retailer and his business partner extraordinary information to run the business even more efficiently and more effectively, again, being in the numbers. So I think that being in the numbers is probably it. And for some people, I know that’s gonna sound like, Oh, that’s not why I got in the bike business. And I would actually put it out there. It’s not either-or it should be and, and if you own the business, it kind of has to be an regardless of whether or not it’s your favorite thing. You just can’t pay attention to it. And as you get in the numbers, and as you understand your performance, and what drives it, and you increase that performance, you can ultimately become more profitable. And if you’re more profitable, I would argue that profit just represents a choice, the more your profit, the more choices you have. And that’s kind of a cool place to be able to have choice versus at the end of the year, having and if there’s any money left, that’s probably an inventory, which is typical, but you know, not really kind of having a paltry existence. So I think there’s an opportunity there, but I think it’s really learning your business. If you don’t know it. You’ll If you got a mentor, you work with another person in a business who understands it. There are things like community college classes just even on basic things like cost accounting, but otherwise, you know, you’re cooking a turkey in an oven, but you don’t have a thermometer. So you don’t know if it’s done or not. And that’s a problem.

David DeKeyser  28:13

Right? Right now it feels a little bit like retailers and everybody is kind of hitting the reset button. In a way, I think that inventories in the stores are they’re obviously able to sell through a lot of things. So they’re kind of able to clean house, but retailers are also and this has been discussed quite a bit is how tired everybody is right now. And even you guys there was an Instagram post and CBeebies Instagram page that I saw last week, it was all hands on deck, absolutely. packing boxes and everybody’s working longer and harder as far as the next several months or a year and nobody has a crystal ball obviously, but the things that retailers have learned in operating their businesses and how many times and how fast they’ve had to pivot in the last 60 or 90 days. Do you feel it? That’s going to be, ultimately, possibly a positive for how retailers and the whole industry has learned to completely change day to day in the beginning week to week and now kind of month to month. In the end, do you think it may be a net positive for operations? I believe so. Because to be sure, it’s hard. And I know retailers are beyond tired, and often 70-80 hours don’t get it. And so my heart goes out to them. I know, it’s a challenging time, I kind of think of stress on top of stress. And there are a lot of times in our personal life or in work, that we’re doing all these things that are the first time ever, but then successively, right. So that’s really stressful. And so I do believe that some of the things we’ve learned

Todd Cravens  29:45

will serve us one is just the ability to change and to pivot. Sometimes it’s forced upon us and I would argue that would be right now, other times there’s an opportunity and we take a risk, but if we think about it, you know, we worked hard to support people for bikes to get bike shops, nationally listed as essential businesses, because we deeply believe in our hearts bike shops are essential businesses, that was important for us because we believe that designation, a lot of a number of retailers to continue to do business if they chose some chose not to because they were worried about health, I totally understand and respect that. But a number did and add to, to your point change how they were doing business by appointment more online, through Facebook, any number of things that allowed them to serve their communities and be accessible to their customers. And, you know, even when I think about the numbers of customers that have chosen to sign up for a retail fulfillment, or they’ve created a stronger online presence, for a number of people, they had no interest in doing that, with these significant changes in public health policy and the challenges that we were all dealing with a number of people leaned in and based on the numbers we’re seeing, it seems to be making a difference. So I guess in the end, I think most people don’t like change. I know I’m in that boat. However, I know that being able to be open to change and then understanding how to Work through change might be one of the most important skills I’ve ever learned at QBP. Because it allows us to continue to develop and grow either again, because it’s forced upon us or because there’s an opportunity if that makes sense. Absolutely.

David DeKeyser  31:13

Todd, this has been very informative. We really appreciate that you took the time today. Do you have any final thoughts or last words for us here as we start to wrap this up?

Todd Cravens  31:23

Oh, gosh, Thanks, David. It’s just a pleasure to be on the podcast. And thank you so much. You know, I really just have such profound respect for our retailers out there and the services they provide the community, we really believe bikes solve a lot of problems. And we think that mic shops are positioned to be able to be part of the solution, which is really magical. Not all businesses can say or do that or even feel that good. So it’s just our great privilege to serve retailers out there as well as suppliers, getting the product to retailers. In both cases. These are really critical stakeholders that we want to support and continue to advocate on behalf of so I’d say thank you very much. Best of luck. I still think we have bright bright skies ahead of us. Excellent.

David DeKeyser  32:02

Well, everybody that was Todd Cravens, we thank him for being on the episode today. If you found this episode or other bicycle retail radio insightful and informative, please consider joining the NBA if you haven’t already by visiting nba.com as the NBA has benefits that can save you money and improve your business. Ultimately your membership adds to the collective voice so the specialty bicycle retailer in the NBA is efforts to represent and advocate for your interests. Thank you, everybody, for listening.

Rod Judd  32:29

This has been Bicycle Retail Radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

David DeKeyser and his wife Rebecca Cleveland owned and operated The Bike Hub in De Pere, Wisconsin, for nearly 18 years. In 2018, they sold the business and real estate to another retailer based in a nearby community. David now writes the Positive Spin series on Bicycle Retailer and Industry News and he writes articles for the NBDA’s blog, Outspokin’. David also provides business consulting through the NBDA’s P2 Consult Program.

The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

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The post How to Run a Profitable Bike Shop: Part 2 appeared first on National Bicycle Dealers Association.

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JT Thompson

Tue, 8/18 10:46AM • 47:12

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

bikes, retailers, giant, bicycles, brand, retail, people, products, cycling, buy, USA, service, dealers, continue, companies, business, big, days, suppliers, lead

SPEAKERS

JT, Rod Judd, Chad Pickard, Kent Cranford

Rod Judd  00:10

You are listening to bicycle retail radio brought to you by the National Bicycle Dealers Association.

Chad Pickard  00:16

I’ve been looking forward to this podcast for a few weeks. I’m a little bit of a fan of Giant and live bicycles. I have a couple hanging in my garage. In fact, everyone in my family has at least one bike that came from giant bicycles. In some cases, it’s actually two or three. Today we’re going to be talking about giant bicycles. And my guest is JT of giant bicycles. Welcome to the podcast. JT. How are you? 

JT  00:38

I’m great. Chad, thanks for having me.

Chad Pickard  00:40

Good. It’s I am really excited about this podcast. It’s not often that we get to talk to someone like yourself, you’re the GM of Giant Bicycles. That’s an important position and also an important leadership position in our industry. So I’m going to thank you for all that you’ve done so far, and hopefully for a lot of things that are coming up.

JT  00:58

Thanks, Chad. You give me more credit than I deserve.

Chad Pickard  01:01

Well, I’m sure you have some great people working with you which giant USA A lot of people don’t really know. But tell me about your staff you have about 100 people and

JT  01:11

we have 93 people. So we kind of internal joke is where the 93 Spartans, and we’re competing with 10 times that personnel from the brand in Wisconsin and the brand in Northern California. So all of us wear a lot of hats and we’re not afraid to do things that are outside our job descriptions.

Chad Pickard  01:31

Okay, Giant USA out in California, you’re not just a warehouse. What are some of the things that you guys do for giant global I guess is what we’d say.

JT  01:41

So we’re one of 14 giant global sales companies. So there’s giant Germany giant France, giant UK giant USA, giant Canada, and so on. So it’s the local sales companies objective is to connect to the culture Using the products that are created with our engineering and manufacturing in Taichung, city, and dacha Taiwan, and to connect to our market with products experiences, but more importantly, connecting to our retail network, we have a global strategy that is based in retail first. So it’s called retail support. And it’s not just something that we do in Giant USA, it’s the same game plan in giant Taiwan or giant Singapore giant Italy. So it’s something that is a global strategy, that retail first, that’s our connection to the consumer.

Chad Pickard  02:44

And you guys do any product development out in California

JT  02:48

or have a part in that we have a major part in that. So there’s, there’s about a half a dozen of us that are involved in that with all the different cycling gear experiences as well as bike Express lenses and there’s three of us that go back to Taiwan. Usually once every six weeks, obviously, we haven’t been doing that recently, we try to shape design and create products that are right for our culture. So we have a big play. So where we have a global leader, so say gravel bikes, or performance mountain bikes, giant USA is by far the global leader, or also live bikes as well. So, we are the leading product development team for a big number of segments that we provide in this market. Now there are some other global sales companies that lead in other categories. So as per se giant Australia would lead tri bikes because that’s really their forte. So what we use is these global sales companies to lead product development, where that segment and experience is is critical in that marketplace.

Chad Pickard  04:02

Sure, sure. Okay. And for those of you that don’t know the brands under the giant umbrella are live bicycles momentum and as well as Kate x live being their ground-up from kids bikes to adult bikes designed for women by women, which is phenomenal. There have been some changes at giant over the last couple months, a little bit of branding, a few name changes. Is that something that we as retailers will see, will we see different opportunities for us or different programs developing because of that?

JT  04:32

Absolutely. In the past, there was a brand elasticity that was so large for giant and live that we had products that were sidewalk bikes that would start near $100. And we would go up to super professional-caliber bikes that were $12,000 and that there’s just too much brandy less density. You can’t be Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche under one brand you need to create segments for the brand In a clear point of view, recently we launched Giant group is the overall umbrella. And under the umbrella sits the giant brand, the live band, and the momentum brand of bicycles and Codex is a component brand. What this will enable us to do and we’re in that process now and it’s something that will be a journey over the next number of years is you will see recreation, sidewalk bikes that were in the giant family, when they are re-engineered a new platform those particular experiences will move to momentum. So the reason I say that is so giant and life will become exclusive to the sport and performance segment. So creating a very clear point of view. momentum, then becomes our urban recreation, transportation sidewalk. And it doesn’t mean it’s a cheap brand, you’ll see some interesting designs, you’ll see certainly innovative e-bikes within the momentum line. So that enables us to create three separate product lines that have a very clear point of view. And I think will help us do a better job with our messaging and our marketing, which is not one of our best performance areas. It sounds

Chad Pickard  06:27

like a lot of change. But it also sounds like you’ll be able to focus a lot more on those categories and deliver a better product. So does that give Giant USA a little bit more of an advantage or well, things look kind of the same from a retailer to vendor point of view.

JT  06:43

I think it’ll give us an advantage because we’ll have a brand that has clarity. My example before of the whole Volkswagen Audi Porsche, I think you’ll see giant will become the performance and sports brand and that’ll be the real vision. powerplay live will be in the same area. And then momentum, as I explained is more fun transportation. So that clear point of view I think will help us define the brand. And also help the dealer be able to communicate what the brands are about. So there’s less duplication today we have an escape. And we also have in a momentum line, an ice Street and some people would say, Hey, there, there is a similar experience. So what we want to do is create experiences that are more powerful in one family and eliminate them from another to stop duplication, we want to be very focused on our product line. So by having a focus, we can actually be a better supplier because we’re one of the only ones I know of that actually makes the food that we serve the writer and the retailer from raw materials with our aluminum Foundry and our own Carbon Fiber through to the retailer’s door, we control the process and we make where our competitors go to another manufacturing facility and by so that makes us very unique. So we’re that restaurant that makes the food rather than the restaurant that serves fast food per se.

Chad Pickard  08:19

Sure. We’re going to come back to that a little bit later. A few years ago, you guys kind of broke the industry mold and brought us the live brand full line of women’s bikes. This year. You signed Rebecca’s Rusch as a LIV ambassador. So some awesome things happening on that front. What opportunity has this provided for women and why does life continue to push for more women’s bikes and other brands kind of seem to be cutting back a little bit?

JT  08:41

The first one I’d like to make is Bonnie two is our chairperson. She’s an avid cyclist. She’s got a great style. She has really been a major part of driving us to make products that are absolutely pure for women over Yours, Chad, you’ve been doing this for a long time like I have, there’s been a lot of shrink and pink bikes out there. Sure. And that’s not live is about making products that are specific for women, our data is very heavy. And the data that we have is women’s lower leg mass fires much differently than a man. There’s much more power from a women’s side than from the way a man writes different anatomy, obviously, and we are LIV is women engineering. As you pointed out, women design women’s colors and graphics for women. It’s not about making bikes that are just a different color. The bikes are pure to create a better performance experience. And often the live bikes will end up being considerably lighter than the men’s bikes because they’re sized a bit differently. They’re smaller triangles. They have a different layup, stroke. For the carbon bikes, they have a different budding procedure for the aluminum bikes. And I think some of the reasons why many of the competition has backed away from making these bikes that are specific to women’s performances. It’s an ROI issue, making carbon mold. It’s $100,000. When you do it the way we do it, that’s one size. All right, and every size for a giant carbon mold is a different layup, outer diameter, inner diameter. They’re all unique for a specific size rider. So when you see other companies trying to do that, there is a lack of ROI to recover that tooling cost. Fortunately for us, we have that integration of carbon makeup as well as an aluminum foundry. So we can be more specific in quality as well as also saving some costs because we do the work ourselves rather than buying from a third party. I do not see any lifting of the gas pedal when it comes to lifting. If anything, I think you will see more and more. As we talked about how this giant group impact works in the future, that you’ll continue to see more and more performance bikes. So Rebecca rush that girl’s my hero.  I don’t know how else to say other than she’s the real deal. She kicks ass and she’s awesome. And having her with us and helping us design some of our products in the LIV family is going to be huge. I think you’ll see more and more of her involvement with our company, especially here in the USA, but it’s also a global play as well.

Chad Pickard  11:44

When personal requests can we see some of the live colors and marketing come over to the giant side. I mean, the live stuff just jumps off the page in a catalog on the showroom floor. It just screams it wants to be written. I love the color of the designer. it and I know I know some other giant retailers that talk about that as well. But the LIV stuff is amazing looking they do an incredible job with it every year.

JT  12:08

So I created the live bikes are certainly leaders in their outlook. I think that’s pretty important to see that LIV has that unique team. And live is radically different from what you see on the outlook of Giant and the momentum lines. I think you’ll see the giant team raise the bar I think they have over the last couple of years. I think our outlook has really improved and we’re implementing some new paint processes and some proprietary graphic presentations. I think that will help our amazing engineering pop off the page. So people just want to buy it because graphically it’s over the top and inviting. Awesome. I

Chad Pickard  12:55

look forward to seeing that in person and print on the web wherever possible. We’re gonna shift gears A little bit a couple of podcasts ago, we talked about the bike boom and 1973 there were 15 million bikes sold in the US. And the next year that number dropped almost in half numbers went from 8 million to 15 million and then back to 8 million. What do we need to do to continue this bike boom that we’re currently in? What do retailers and vendors need to do to ensure that these new cyclists coming into bike stores are gonna you know, when the weather gets nice again next year or and in some parts of the country stays nice. What do we do to keep them on their bikes?

JT  13:31

But I think we have a little different issue. So I was riding a bike back in those days when there was the gas crunch in the mid-70s. Gas came back at reasonable prices. our human nature is to forget things pretty quickly. Where I think that changes now is I think, now we’re into a quality of life issue, a health issue. I think the fact that you know, we’re having this boom right now, which is what I remember, it’s much bigger right now than it was just the acceleration of where we’ve come. Because I think those of us who have been in the business I’ve seen the last 10 years where the independent specialty stores have been kind of stuck with about 2 million bike sales per year. I think it’s going to be a lot, potentially bigger this year, but the supply channel just can’t accelerate from 20 miles an hour to 100 miles an hour. So that’ll be our challenge. But I think it’s human nature, to want to have some fun. And I think right now, there’s a lot of people having fun on their bikes, they’re able to have separation, they’re able to get exercise. And I think we all know that cycling, the cost of cycling is an amazing value. When I go to the giant factories and I see what we do, and then I see what we price our products for. It’s just mind-blowing that we can make it work with all that goes on pulling together all the parts that makeup one complete bike. So where I think this wins is, America is a very car culture. I think we’re changing that a little bit right now, especially in urban environments, I think mass transit will be less likely to be used. Because there are some health concerns. I think the gym following someone sweat on a machine and then jumping right back on it, I think might be a challenge, where you can just ride your bike and it’s your own sweat, or your family sweat, the fact that people are riding now, I don’t know if we’re going to hold all of the acceleration that we have right now. But I think it would be a really great opportunity if we can hold 20 to 25% of that of those cyclists that are new now that they stay in it. They become our dream, which we all know that’s the cyclists for life, where they buy their second bike, their third bike, they get involved Cycling becomes part of their life, they become that cycling person, which I think many of us in this industry, and I think outsiders think we’re a little touched. But I think there’s going to be more of that. We’re going big. We believe, here at Giant USA that the next 18 months in America are going to be a great opportunity to get more people on bikes and its real challenges supply with the right products at the right time, I think is going to be a big deal. It puts a lot of pressure on us as a manufacturing company to get the proper throughput, get our sub-suppliers who at times control our lead times to perform at the level that we do. So we’re bullish, we’re excited. We think America is going to be more like Europe and a certain degree in which I’ve lived in Europe for a number of years racing my bike, and it was always amazing. The culture, the intelligence, and the health, that really seemed to be a direct connection to the cycling life. And I think it’d be a great thing if America got closer to that.

Chad Pickard  17:12

Yeah, I agree that physical and mental health would be completely different. I mean, I see it in, in my own employees when days that they ride consecutively into work versus, you know, weeks, usually the winter where they drive a little bit more, you just see that personality, it’s completely different. So let’s just hypothetically let’s, let’s just say that I own a bike store, maybe in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and I’ve got to do some planning for next year. Do I look at

JT  17:37

this year’s number and do the same do I? How can I work with my vendor to make sure that I’m going to get bikes next year? That store that you just described is a unique circumstance and if you have multiple stores, you know, even the store that’s store two is always very different than store one or store three, they’re always unique. So I think it’s up to you to connect to the marketplace. Giant USA is like a big retail store, right? We’re retail support, as I explained earlier, and our decision to buy big, that’s how we’re going to run our business because we think there’s an opportunity out there in the marketplace as America changes and goes more cycling centric. So we’re going to do our best to fill our three company’s own distribution centers that are 150,000 square feet plus, in California, in Illinois, as well as New Jersey. And the reason we do that is so we can feed our customers within two days to 90% of the country. We want our retailers to turn their inventory because inventory term means profit. But Chad, I think we’re in the new world order. I think we’re going to need to be aggressive without risk there is little reward. And right now, I think all these signals, and maybe you say it’s a stock market play or a futures play We as Giant big retail company, we’re going to go fast. Now we’re going to try to supply those sub $1,000 bikes in an aggressive manner. continue to innovate with sport and performance bikes, really push hard on E-bikes that people can afford, really round out our brands. And the most important thing we can do is to help our retailers thrive and make money, again goes back to retail support, and that is, if our retailers are healthy, we are healthy. If our retailers are not healthy, we suffer along with them.

Chad Pickard  19:38

So you guys do some planning some inventory planning, obviously, I mean, I hope where do you see the value from the retailer’s from their planning? Is it I’m assuming you don’t need down to specific skews, like in six, seven months? I’m going to need eight of this specific skew. Is that forecasting more per category is it Do you like To see size runs, like what would your average size runs are? Or is it color? Where do you guys benefit the most from getting information from retailers for long term projections? 

JT  20:11

Okay, this is going to sound hard. But we have made aggressive buys forecasts as the improper term. We have placed firm orders with the factory for size for color for the model. That’s what we’re doing because it’s the only way that we can ensure supply from our sub-suppliers and obviously, the biggest one is Shimano, and number two is SRAM, and there are other opportunities out there as well. So as a manufacturer, being first in line with the sub-suppliers, unfortunately, we are because we’re the biggest global manufacturer and we also do a web business as you’re well aware of. We got to be firm for us. So I would ask really Taylor’s to be as firm as they possibly can buy the bikes they know they’re going to sell. And we’re forecasting an increased opportunity of more than 40%. So when I said we’re going big, we’re going big, but I want to put that in relevance to Giant USA. Were an underperforming brand in America. I don’t think there’s a reason why we should be in the position we’re in. Now I’m not saying that’s bad. I’m just saying around the globe. In most marketplaces giant is the by far our leader by far sports performance brand leader in Australia, in the UK, in France in the Benelux countries in those real cycling centric markets. And what makes me stay awake at night is even our brothers and sisters to the north of the US and Canada. Giant is the number one brand competing with the Same brands we have here in America. So let’s just say holding myself accountable and holding the rest of the 93 Spartans here accountable is we have a great opportunity for growth and the growth will be done the right way. We’re not going to roll the tank over the bodies. And I think we can do some great things with our retailers as partners to win together. But we need those firm orders. Okay, which I’m a huge fan of, I think that you know, with any brand you as a retailer, you sell what’s on your floor, and you order what you’re going to sell. And sometimes I think our customers are not, they’re also not coming in for that specific skew. They’re coming in because they want to bike with their kids. They may prefer red, they may prefer black, but ultimately their real desire is to have fun on a bike and not have fun on that specific UPC number. So yeah, no, I don’t think that was a hard answer at all. What can I Retailers do with Giant to help continue to move this ball forward? I mean, what? Where can we work together? Is it working together by creating programs? You know, Giant has their web link, and they have their Ambassador programs, which have been sounding like they’ve been great for retailers. Are there other programs coming out? I mean, is there or is it just a matter of retailers asking for help in certain areas, we’re always going to adapt. So we have this term here at giant globally called PDCA. Plan, do check act. So we’re constantly evaluating our planning. And we assess those projects or actions, sometimes on a weekly basis, monthly, quarterly, yearly, and then we repeat, to improve. So that’s the plan, do check, act repeat. So we’re constantly evaluating our products or services and some of the key services that we provide Right now, our weblink our click and collect, actually a pretty small business for us chat. Now it’s gotten a lot bigger since March with the issues we’ve all faced. And what I understand from the research I’ve done and with some experts is prior to COVID-19 total eCommerce sales in the US were about 8%.

Chad Pickard  24:26

Is that just bikes or is that bikes and bike gear?

JT  24:28

No, we’re talking all e-commerce. Okay. All goods. So Macy’s, Target, what have you. Okay, so I’m sure that number is a lot different now. Three months later? Sure. So you haven’t seen the numbers come up yet. And some of the very best companies are in their total revenue zone is 20% is done through e-commerce. So we’re in the single digits at giant Group here in America. And I’m sure that it’s going to continue to rise, as more and more young people are involved with capitalization that they have the money. But one thing is going to be crystal clear about whatever we do with our click and collect what we call weblink. In America, we’re going to share the profit with our retailers. So we call that O plus O and O plus O. o is online. So that’s our web link. And then offline is our retail network. So whenever we do online, we always think retail first, how can we support our retail network? You know, the retail network? I think you know this very well. You guys are. Those guys are on the front lines. They’re dealing with the customers have each one has unique needs, different ways of communicating. We want to empower our retailers to remain individualistic To cover every unique human circumstance, holy crap that’s challenging. So we understand how hard the retail job is. Anybody that’s an executive in this company has come from the retail world. And we’re going to do everything we possibly can holding up our part of the partnership. And I hate to use that word partnership, because it’s, it’s used by many who don’t know what it means it’s a marriage. And yeah, we’re not perfect, and we’re going to make some mistakes. And you’re going to make some mistakes at the retail side, too. But the thing is, I think if we know we have each other’s back, and we’re always pushing to help each other. There’s always good intent behind every action that we’re going to be powerful together.

Kent Cranford  26:49

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Chad Pickard  27:08

So, because of my position on the NBA board, I get to know a lot of retailers and retailers as small as I donate in Sioux Center, Iowa is backyard community is 7000 people from woody at Richardson bike Mart, who has 7 million people in the Dallas metro area, you know, to obviously different retailers in different parts of the world. How do you connect with them? And how do you relate to them when you don’t have Interbike? Or a trade show or the giant link event? How do you connect with them to see you know what their struggles are on a daily basis, other than a zoom meeting with everyone which it probably isn’t possible?

JT  27:46

That’s correct. And I’m not a fan of zoom now because I’m on zoom for like five hours a day in a hurry. I believe humans love human contact. Unfortunately, the last three months we’ve had to stay six feet apart from each other We’re going to do our best in this hopefully temporary time to do virtual launches. We’re going to empower our we have 25 account executives on the road. We’ve got three regional sales managers. We’ve got eight inside reps, we’ve got five after-sale warranty people, you know, really trying to connect with each individual retailer in this challenge. Do we know how well it’s going to go? No. Do we have every intention to provide as much information and intimacy as possible? Yes. And we’ll see how it goes. I hope the days return where we can have link launches. Again, be more intimate, but we’re going to try our best with electric launch capability, zoom meetings, podcasts, video presentations. We’re learning ourselves right now. We’re in these new waters and we’re trying to swim as well as we can

Chad Pickard  28:59

get It’s gotta be challenging. I mean, as, as a retailer myself, you know, it’s hard to have those in-depth conversations when you do not face to face. And it’s just a digital connection or maybe just a phone call. But I certainly look forward to things changing, I think, I think everybody has sat there at the retail level, retailers are being told to add more and more value for their customers when a product is bought. And that’s, that’s how we’re going to beat online sales. And I don’t, as you mentioned before, that’s only 8%. But so as retailers add more and more value that comes at the expense of time and resources, which can slowly erode some of the dollars and cents that make a bike store sustainable. How can a retailer add more value without eroding that? How can giant as a vendor or other vendors add value to their product so that the retailer doesn’t carry that full load?

JT  29:54

Yeah, that’s a real challenge. We’re in a business where a profit struggles Sure, and the margins are lean for everybody in the full channel. So it’s like we’re trying to get blood from a stone, our fixed cost, variable cost percentage versus what our profit side brings in, is so tight, it’s alarming. And it’s just like a retail store. A couple of points here, there can make you very, very sad or make you very happy. But that’s so we’re kind of in a very interesting business where it’s so damn lean. So I think on the sales company side, the distribution side, what we do here in America, we got to figure out ways to help. So do we offset home deliveries? Do we provide cash payouts on a web link, which we do now? We provide a 100% margin to stocking dealers do we create different incentives that recover more margin for those areas that we might have a little more margin, and we can share it back with the dealer. But some cases, just like the dealer, when we’re selling $150 bike, when it’s all said and done, we’re doing it out of service. We’re not doing it for profit. It’s really challenging. So how do we offset freight, which is one of our biggest challenges from the giant side as well as the giant retailer side? Right? How do we do that? Because we’re in a freight war. What I mean by the freight war is the freight wars with Amazon with all the e-commerce companies going into the transportation companies that we use and basically bumping us to the back. We’re a relatively small business and I’m talking the whole industry, we don’t command much power. So the transportation companies kind of have their way with us and put us to the back of the line. The rates are not the best for us. So we have to figure out a way To navigate that challenge and to help our retailers as well. And I would say one thing that’s pretty, please don’t think I’m crazy for being so Frank, is we can be pretty stupid in this industry. The fact that we don’t charge the consumer for freight in my mind is insane. I mean, at the retail level, right? When you buy a car, you buy a motorcycle, you buy a boat, you buy any premium consumer good, which a bicycle is. There’s always a destination charger, whatever you want to call it. So, yes, in the 70s, that great brand out of Chicago came up with all their innovative stuff. And I think this industry is falling along with that because we don’t know a better way but I would say if retailers start charging consumers a delivery charge for freight, I think it offsets that it makes a big deal over the course of an annualized business, and I’m just using that as an example. There are other areas that I think we just give away. And we’re giving away when we don’t have to. But on the giant side, right on our web link, we have to set the tone we have to set the standard. So we have to charge the consumer All right, a delivery fee as well. So it’s not all on the retailer chat it’s part our deal as well. So and I think we need to lead that revolution of more profit.

Chad Pickard  33:32

I can get on board with that Yeah, Yeah, I agree with a lot of that, you know, you buy a new car, you might get an oil change, but you buy a new bike and you get one-year free service free, you know, probably a static fit of some sort. discounts and accessories. Yeah, yeah, it’s dollars being given away and just walking out of the door. So yeah, though, that’s for it’s a frank answer, but yes, it’s I agree I would love to see a day where you know whether the weed becomes more sustainable through greater margins or giving away less. I think that’s important for our industry.

JT  34:10

Even more on that, and you got me all charged up on my soapbox right now, sorry about that. Go for it industry. We’re in the service support we provide. So those free tuneups lifetime warranty on frames or wheels or whatever you have you. They are in no other business. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but we have those services, we have those programs. And I don’t think they have much value because we don’t put value to them. So I traveled the country often, except these last three months, and been doing it for 30 years or more. And it kills me when I see service rates of x dollar and you can go to one market. You can see all The dealers in the metro area or small city, you can see all the service rates, the change, I’m sorry, are the same. There’s a vast difference in what some dealers do versus what another does in the quality of service and the way they build their bikes in the way they service bikes in the people that they hire, the expertise, the technicians, and we’re not talking about low tech goods anymore in the bike business. I mean, we have some of the highest tech goods that rival Formula One cars or motorcycles. We don’t treat the business as such. So So going back to my original point is we give service away and we don’t charge enough for it. I have owned an old European sports car for many years, which I rebuilt and fortunately, I can do that on my own. I tried to go to that German car dealer to get my car serviced. I wouldn’t be able to feed my family. So I think we’re just leaving too much undone, especially for those that do it to a very high level. If you do it to a high level, you can charge more and have the confidence to charge more and justify it. I think a lot of this comes from dealers being challenged in the quality of people that they can hire. There’s a lot of young people involved in retail, they’re kind of transience in their job. So I have a lot of empathy for retailers with humans that are working on the floor. It’s so hard to find good people to keep good people pay them enough when the business ROI is so challenging, as we earlier spoke about.

Chad Pickard  36:43

I think you said it I mean, there is an opportunity there to charge the right price, whether it’s service or not. There was my accountant told me he said his competition in his town, which is a small town in Iowa. His competition doubled all of their rates, and their first thought was they’re going to do half as much business and then their second thought was, they’re going to make the same amount of money with half as much work. I’ll never forget that story. And I hope that people look at service that way that you know, right now we’re most bike shops are just booked a month out. If they transition some of their pricing to a little bit higher to what it actually should be, you know, then they may lose a little bit of service, but they’re also going to be able to pay more competitive wages, probably staff that’s less stressed, probably the staff that is truly skilled will probably stick around longer and enjoy their jobs more. But yeah, I agree with you. That’s thank you for that. Appreciate that.

JT  37:35

And Chad, what you just said I think delivers on the end goal of quality, rather than volume and being the best and being quality is should always be your first drive. Right. Going back to your question about plenty of work with a small local 7000 population town dealer or that Richardson bike Mart, you know, in a major metropolis of more than 5 million people my answer Human on human, it’s identifying the unique needs and doing your best. No one plan works for everybody. And we try to put everybody into a general plan. But then I think it’s very important that we have the courage and we have the flexibility and the partnership to flex where it makes sense to build both of that business relationship to return the most reward

Chad Pickard  38:28

I want to go back to so giants you mentioned, you know, you cook your own food and deliver it and serve it in your own restaurants, in a way distributed through your warehouses. So with giant owning that kind of that whole process what’s, you know, from the time that you say we need this product, to the time that can be on a sales floor? Do you have any sort of edge with owning that whole process? Can you get a product to market any quicker? And what is that timeframe? Like? Is it three weeks is it 60 days, 90 days,

JT  38:58

so our lowest lead times Our I’m going to put transportation to our market in there too because we’re talking about 30 days under. Right great for order placement to where we have it in our distribution to get in the hands of our retail family is 90 days is the shortest lead time. That’s not today, because today we’re in it upside down demand cycle and supply cycle as well because still a lot of sub-suppliers are not at full capacity. And then some of the longer lead time bikes, you know, some of the Exotica stuff might be as much as 150 days. So sometimes we’ll make a plan for that Exotica type product, and let’s just say it’s 300 bikes we go to we present the bike and our dealers just get overwhelmed and excited, and they buy 600 bucks, the second half that 300 is not going to be delivered until 150 50 days later, at best, maybe we can put it on an air container and get it in 120 days. So, at certain times of the year, sometimes you miss the whole opportunity because you know that a sub-supplier has a new widget coming that will obsolete, that particular rear derailleur or fork. So it can be a challenging business. I’m less worried about the sub $1,000 bikes because I think we have more flexibility there. Okay.

Chad Pickard  40:33

So as a retailer we have challenges with as a vendor, I imagine is that transportation that shipping time is that one of your biggest challenges is working around that. Is it the value of the dollar? I mean, what are the struggles at your level?

JT  40:49

So the transportation thing is a challenge in the sheer cost. That’s that challenge. The biggest challenge we face is efficient production time, meaning getting all the hundreds hundred little parts to make that complete bicycle, getting it all scheduled to go down the production line. And then getting all the boxing all the employees and people power is a huge challenge because we have this thing called Chinese New Year in Asia. And it’s not just China. All right, it’s whether it’s Taiwan, Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, people go away. And there seems to be more of a transit workforce there. And it’s very common for 20% of that workforce not to show back up. So, yeah, imagine your retail store where you know, you had a vacation time when things were lean, and then all of a sudden, you know, those who you least expect don’t show up again. It’s usually RAGBRI week. And they’re laying in a cornfield.

Chad Pickard  42:03

If they’re lucky, yeah,

JT  42:05

 I’d say manpower is probably the biggest challenge. And what we’re trying to do to circumvent that is there is more and more automation coming into play in manufacturing. So in aluminum frames, robotic welding, and on some of the carbon stuff, there are some robotic actions taking place in the cutting of carbon prepreg. And then the pool of carbon prepreg, as it’s laid into the mold as well. So, I mean, there’s a lot of technology and there’s a lot of opportunities to improve. So what it does is the cost is high for automation, but the production throughput all right is more consistent, provided the robot doesn’t break down. Sure, or the operator that is using the robot shows up for work

Chad Pickard  42:58

right different challenges. Have to make sure that our pizza gets delivered on time for our employees and the beer fridge is full-on Friday nights. Well, john was cooking, we’ve covered a lot of things. And I want to thank you for being on the show. We’ve, I’m sure we’ll talk again, maybe on a webinar or on another show. But thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule and spending it with us today. Any final words you want to add?

JT  43:22

Yeah, I just can’t use words to describe the change that has happened to our business in the last 90 days. The expectation of when you know, these headwinds first started to hit us in February. And then as it just spiked, we thought the business was going to be soft, as many businesses thought, but it actually went the opposite way. Fortunately for us, we took care of our sub-suppliers and continue to keep our orders in place and continue to pay them like the business was going to be as planned. And I think that’s put us in a very good position right now, as some others did cancel and put things on delay. We are really, really focused on retail first, we’re not perfect, we’re going to make mistakes. But our, our integrity in that end is very high. We know how hard the retail network is. And the retail network has experienced, probably threefold of what we have from our side because we’re somewhat isolated. We take a knee per se, and really appreciate what our retailers have done for us because, without them, we would not be here, being able to enjoy the cycling life, because I love to ride my bike every day and I’m just like your employees. When I ride my bike. I’m a happy camper and whatever comes my way I seem to be able to brush the dirt off and when I don’t ride the bike things Things seem to get through my pores and bother me. Closing note again would be, we’re focused on supply. Everything is about supply right now, especially for the next 90 days, July is has been pretty tough because what took place with sub-suppliers in February and March when Shimano was essentially shut down in Singapore and a number of other places were shut down because of governmental restrictions that we’re feeling right now, because of the lead times in June. So we’re doing our very best to spread the bikes around because we want to feed everybody and it’ll get better in July. It’ll get even better in August. And I think it’ll get better again in September. It’ll continually improve from our side on the supply. And we’re confident that there’s going to continue to be more consumers that see the value in cycling and visit innovation. pendant specialty retailers that want service want to love and want to be part of the cycling life, not just buy a bike that’s going to hang from a hook in their garage because they spent $150 on it from a mass merchant.

Chad Pickard  46:13

Well awesome. Yes, I know a lot of retailers are looking forward to you know, opening up the floodgates of bikes and and and hopefully continuing into the next year and years beyond that too with new customers and more customers. So yeah, looking forward to that. So thank you JT. Appreciate your time. I hope Giant continues to thrive and the health of your staff and family continues to be healthy, I guess. Thanks, Chad. back at you already. You take care.

JT  46:39

Okay, my best all our retailers. I want to thank them for their support. They’ve really been everything to us.

Chad Pickard  46:46

Cool. Thank you. Hey, take care.

Rod Judd  46:48

 This has been bicycle retail radio by the National Bicycle Dealers Association. For more information on membership and member benefits, join us @NBDA.com

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Chad Pickard
Owner, Spoke-n-Sport – South Dakota (2 locations)

In 6th grade, Chad took apart and rebuilt his first coaster brake hub.  It was that curiosity that kept him working in bike service shops from the age of 14 till buying Spoke-N-Sport in 2001.  Mountain bikes and Hans Rey ignited his passion for technical trail riding a few years later.  Chad’s work experience is almost 100% bike stores but he is always looking to other industries to improve the customer experience in his two stores.  Chad serves on the bike committee in Sioux Falls and has played an active role in defending the rights of cyclists at the state level including the most recent 3-foot / 6-foot passing law.

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The NBDA has been here since 1946, representing and empowering specialty bicycle dealers in the United States through education, communications, research, advocacy, member discount programs, and promotional opportunities. As shops are facing never-before-seen circumstances, these resources offer a lifeline. Together, we will weather this. We at the NBDA will not waver in our commitment to serving our members even during this challenging time—but we need your support.

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